reported Auto bombing

[Dirty Mittens]

I've been away from the hornet for a few months letting it mature a little and noticed something different recently. While auto bombing MK82s my bombs release earlier than expected.

 

Before I used to be able to designate the target and get the countdown to release on the hud. At about 3 seconds to release I would hold weapons release button down and when the timer got to 0 it would release.... automatically.

When I do that now MK82s drop 3 seconds early and miss of course. 

What has changed?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dirty Mittens

[bwheatley]

I made a forums account finally after all these years to echo this. The hornets ccrp/auto is broken, doesn't matter if it was CBU's, GBU's, Mk-82's.

When the timer hits 0 your bombs fall well short, the sweet spot that kinda worked was about a ~1 second pause.

A ~2 second pause resulted in overshooting the target. 

My test

Map: South America 

21 Static bmp 3's on port stanleys runway.

F-18's coming in at 14k feet direction 270. 

Version of DCS

The thing I used to enjoy about the hornet was about how good it was as a ground pounder, it's no viper but it will do. 
I posted here after talking in my circle of DCS buddies who also have complained about the hornet recently being broken. 

 

BrokenHornet.trk

That track represented a final test just to get some movement on this bug, but I thoroughly tested it from different heights, approaches, weapons, nothing worked well.

IR & Laser mav's are fine but dropping anything under bombs with auto is just not working right atm. 
I tested both the multicore and NON multicore open beta and that made no difference either.

[bwheatley]

guessing this hasn't been triaged yet since the flags haven't been updated since i provided a track file.

[bwheatley]

this should be pretty easy to repro... at least update the tag so we know you know this is broken  

[L4key]

Hi - I had this issue last week on Inherent Resolve M02.

Are you on INS or GPS? I was going to try switching that to see if that worked.

Edited April 8, 2023 by L4key

[Blackfyre]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:33 AM, L4key said:

Are you on INS or GPS? I was going to try switching that to see if that worked.

I tried switch between AINS and GPS to no avail (unlike CCIP). Bomb falls short of a target.

Here is the shortest possible track in Caucasus. Missed Msta(target) in approximately 10 feets. In the very same track in old version (2.7.18.30765null) I have hit the target.

@BIGNEWY pay attention to this please.

HornetAutoBombing.trk

Edited April 13, 2023 by Blackfyre

[Cathnan]

I tested as well, on South Atlantic and Caucasus at 6k and 14k each. For some reason mine fell long more often, but never exactly on target. Although sometimes within splash damage radius. All tests on MT version

FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing test South Atlantik 14k feet.trk FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing test South Atlantik 6k feet.trk FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing test Caucasus 14k feet.trk FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing test Caucasus 6k feet.trk

Edited April 14, 2023 by Cathnan
additional information

[Cathnan]

That being said, I assume Auto mode also doesn't work by magic and therefore isn't 100% accurate even without wind. What is a reasonable hight at wich a vehicle can be expected to be hit? I feel like 14k may be a bit much to expect that.

[Blackfyre]

7 hours ago, Cathnan said:

That being said, I assume Auto mode also doesn't work by magic and therefore isn't 100% accurate even without wind. What is a reasonable hight at wich a vehicle can be expected to be hit? I feel like 14k may be a bit much to expect that.

I always assumed that dive bombing more accurate than "straight flight bombing" (is there a name for it?) by the nature of calculations. And a year ago it was so. Given that, straight flight high altitude drop supposed to hit something big like buildings while dive drop supposed to hit something small like vehicles. At least that I thought.

By the way, I have managed to pinpoint target in your track (6k at Caucasus) by not accelerating(see track). And in the old version(2.7.18.30765) in the same track I've missed long by several meters in oppose to dive bombing where I have the target in the old version and bomb falls short in the current.

Definitely something changed, but what exactly?

P.S. Back in the days, I managed reliably hit targets from L-39 with an old school gyro aim, I believe much more modern Hornet should be more accurate and less skill demanding...

FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing test Caucasus 6k feet - 2.trk

[Cathnan]

5 hours ago, Blackfyre said:

I always assumed that dive bombing more accurate than "straight flight bombing" (is there a name for it?) by the nature of calculations. And a year ago it was so. Given that, straight flight high altitude drop supposed to hit something big like buildings while dive drop supposed to hit something small like vehicles. At least that I thought.

I don't know about one being more accurate than the other. I always thought it should be about equal, with toss bombing maybe being less accurate. But that mainly because it's a more dynamic situation and depends more on pilot skill (managing speed, keeping the plane steady). Also I thought the main attraction of auto mode is that you don't have to dive (into potential ground fire).

 

5 hours ago, Blackfyre said:

By the way, I have managed to pinpoint target in your track (6k at Caucasus) by not accelerating(see track).

That however I can confirm. Using auto throttle I also hit bullseye from 6k feet. 14k however fell long, outside of splash damage radius. I don't have an old version to compare.

I also tested dive bombing. From 14k it fell long. From 6k it also fell short. Track for 6k attached.

FA-18 MT MK-82 Auto Bombing Caucasus 6k feet dive-bombing.trk

[Bankler]

I just flew a multiplayer mission with GBU-12. The bombs were released the instant we pressed the weapon release button, instead of waiting for the countdown to reach 0, the auto laser didn't engage. Tried to reproduce the bug in SP to provide a track, but then everything worked fine. Will let you know if I find anything else.

[Jascha]

I think some people have a misconception how accurate unguided bombs rally are (or can be). Mk-82 is not a precision-guided munition. There is a reason why the IAMs and LGBs have been developed. Expecting a pinpoint accuracy with a dumb bomb from 14k doesn't sound smart* to me.

* Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Jascha

[Lekaa]

Hello. 

Today we went flying and had a mixture of bombs. 

One of them was GBU-12.

We all had 3 different targets, watching the pod, TDC DES. in hot toward the target, i was holding the pickle button 3 seconds before release and the bomb dropped right away before the timer reached 0. Also the Laser did not fire by it self. so bomb missed because we was ferly low.

So i went offline to try to figure out what's happening, and i have a track file.

Don't know what causes it.

(IN the track file some bomb did behave normally and some did not like mentioned above)

EDIT: I added a short track with GBU-12 and GBU-24

Also GBU-24 don't have a CCRP line, Choosing CLARA SL don't gives out the usual line for that bomb, nothing, just a diamond in the heading tape toward the target.

Because of that the laser did not fire by it self, i had to lase manually.

Anyone had same issue?

Please try it out so we could have it fixed before the next patch or in the near future

short youtube of the issue, 
 

 

Laser bombs.trk

@Bankler

Laser bombs 2 SHORT.trk

Edited April 15, 2023 by Lekaa

[Bankler]

1 hour ago, Jascha said:

I think some people have a misconception how accurate unguided bombs rally are (or can be). Mk-82 is not a precision-guided munition. There is a reason why the IAMs and LGBs have been developed. Expecting a pinpoint accuracy with a dumb bomb from 14k doesn't sound smart* to me.

* Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

Yes, but accuracy has nothing to do with this bug. The bombs sometimes drop as you start to hold down the weapon release button, instead of when the timer reaches zero. And it happens to LGBs (maybe to other bombs as well, I don't know). It is probably a new thing, because I have never seen this before the last patch.

[Jascha]

51 minutes ago, Bankler said:

Yes, but accuracy has nothing to do with this bug. The bombs sometimes drop as you start to hold down the weapon release button, instead of when the timer reaches zero. And it happens to LGBs (maybe to other bombs as well, I don't know). It is probably a new thing, because I have never seen this before the last patch.

Got it. I misunderstood what is the main issue here. I was referring to some posts above that focus on the accuracy of CCRP itself.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Jascha

[Saruman]

Same with Mk82. No CCRP line in Auto, it always launches in MAN

Inviato dal mio BLA-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Bankler]

(There are a couple of other threads about this, but the headers were possibly a little vague and they missed .trk so I decided to start a new one)

Version

• OB 2.8.4.38947
• MT

Bug

• In AUTO mode, various bombs sometimes drop the moment you press down Weapon Release, instead of waiting until the countdown reaches zero.

Repro rate

~60%

Repro

1. Add a client Hornet with various bombs, and with a grounded WP somewhere
2. Start the mission
3. Select a bomb and configure it (fuze, codes etc)
4. Select WP 1 and press WPDSG
5. Start holding weapon release at 2-5 seconds countdown
6. First bomb will drop as the countdown reaches zero
7. Change to another bomb and reattack
8. Start holding weapon release
9. Observe that this bomb drops instantly
10. Rinse and repeat from step 7

Remarks

• It can happen to several types of bombs: Mk82, Mk83, GBU-12, GBU-16 and Mk20 confirmed.
• In my test, I carry one bomb of each of the ones stated above.
• In all my tests so far, the first bomb works, every time.
• Subsequent bombs sometimes work, sometimes fails.
• It's consistent in that when it fails, the bomb always drops instantly. I have never seen a case where you're holding the button and it drops after a while but too early. Either instantly (failed), or it works as intended.
• It can both fail and work, regardless of feet wet/dry.
• I have seen it fail on pressing the weapon release on short times such as 2 seconds, but also very early such as at 15 seconds.
• Regarding the first bomb always working, despite my 100% consistency in these test, I'm not sure of it. In a multiplayer session the other day, my first GBU-12 failed in this exacy fashion. We had fired HARM and GBU-32 before though.
• (In my tests, it looks like lower altitudes often fails, and higher altitudes often works. But the pattern isn't perfect. Maybe irrelevant.)

Track

• In the track, drop 1 and 2 (GBU-12 and GBU-16) works fine, the drop 3, 4 and 5 fails (Mk82, Mk83, Mk20). As stated above, I have seen all these types failed though, so the bug isn't tied to the dump bombs.

Hornet_AUTO_Bug_Multiple_2sec_Failed.trk

[Hulkbust44]

On 4/15/2023 at 11:04 AM, Jascha said:

I think some people have a misconception how accurate unguided bombs rally are (or can be). Mk-82 is not a precision-guided munition. There is a reason why the IAMs and LGBs have been developed. Expecting a pinpoint accuracy with a dumb bomb from 14k doesn't sound smart* to me.

* Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

For what it's worth, the CEP of a CCIP dropped iron bomb for a Hornet is 1m. A well-dropped Mk82 should beat a standard JDAM.

[amalahama]

8 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

For what it's worth, the CEP of a CCIP dropped iron bomb for a Hornet is 1m. A well-dropped Mk82 should beat a standard JDAM.

That makes no sense and unless you provide some evidence I wouldn't trust that data

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged, we will investigate the issue. 

thanks

[Lord Vader]

Hi all

This was reported internally for analysis. 

Thanks for bringing this up.