Takeoff / Landing roll NWS and Rudder pro tips please?

[FireHazard]

So when turning the NWS off at around 60kts I seem to lack the rudder authority to stay straight down the runway... I need large amounts of 'boot' to stay on track. Similar challenge on landing roll outs, I need to get the NWS on a lot earlier than guides/docs would indicate necessary just to stay on track. 

Any tips for me on this challenge please? 

[Furiz]

4 hours ago, FireHazard said:

Any tips for me on this challenge please? 

For landing, I don't know if you use rudder pedals, with them you can steer the aircraft on the ground by pressing left or right brake, you don't need NWS or rudder for steering, you can assign those to key binds as well.

For taking off yea its difficult but I usually turn off NWS at 80ish knots, I point the plane at the one side of the runway before turning off NWS, depending on the wind direction, so I anticipate the movement, it reaches enough speed then fast to have rudder authority and you can steer with it.

Hope this helps.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Furiz

[skywalker22]

At that speed rudder cannot work properly yet. Rudder work at much higher speeds.

But I also find it strange, why F-16 seems to steer into one side at all times while driving on the runway, I was always wondering why is that so. Why I just cannot go straight.

[_SteelFalcon_]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

At that speed rudder cannot work properly yet. Rudder work at much higher speeds.

But I also find it strange, why F-16 seems to steer into one side at all times while driving on the runway, I was always wondering why is that so. Why I just cannot go straight.

Dumb question, but did you check crosswind?

[Raisuli]

Full boot isn't necessarily a bad thing.  If there's no significant crosswind NWS is off before the brakes; like everything else you need to be ahead of the aircraft, though.  Rudder before you need it, off before you don't, otherwise you spend a lot of time swerving around the runway.  There are days when I swear the engine is causing precession, though...

This, like pretty much everything else, is a matter of practice.   The good news is DCS doesn't count the number of aircraft you prang practising and kick you out of their program.  I've scraped more ventral fins than I can count.  The crew chief rolls his eyes and replaces them without a complaint.

[skywalker22]

32 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

Dumb question, but did you check crosswind?

yee indeed it was a dumb question, maybe there was really the crosswind influencing on plane's steering.

[Frederf]

NWS normally is off by 70 KGS on takeoff and on after 20 KGS on landing. There is always the "unless you need it to maintain control" caveat. Normally rudder and the occasional differential braking is plenty. Juggling the brakes for directional control is a developed skill. Typically your nose wheel isn't even on the ground until 100 KGS or so on landing.

[FireHazard]

17 hours ago, Frederf said:

NWS normally is off by 70 KGS on takeoff and on after 20 KGS on landing. There is always the "unless you need it to maintain control" caveat. Normally rudder and the occasional differential braking is plenty. Juggling the brakes for directional control is a developed skill. Typically your nose wheel isn't even on the ground until 100 KGS or so on landing.

Thank you, as has been mentioned by others, how much does crosswind affect the takeoff or rollout in DCS? I've not really had this modelled in other sims so perhaps not expecting it... 

Is differential braking normal for the Viper? I've not come across this for landing. Everything I've read indicates that it's all about the rudder until slow and then NWS? 

20 hours ago, Raisuli said:

Full boot isn't necessarily a bad thing.  If there's no significant crosswind NWS is off before the brakes; like everything else you need to be ahead of the aircraft, though.  Rudder before you need it, off before you don't, otherwise you spend a lot of time swerving around the runway.  There are days when I swear the engine is causing precession, though...

This, like pretty much everything else, is a matter of practice.   The good news is DCS doesn't count the number of aircraft you prang practising and kick you out of their program.  I've scraped more ventral fins than I can count.  The crew chief rolls his eyes and replaces them without a complaint.

Thank you! But full boot on a takeoff roll? I've never had that in a sim or RL (granted i've never flown a Viper ! lol)... ... I'm tracking very nicely with NWS and then when I turn it off about 80 kts I often have to put a lot of boot in quickly and it often seems like there is a real lack of authority. 

I'll keep practicing, just this was a new struggle for me

[Raisuli]

5 minutes ago, FireHazard said:

Thank you! But full boot on a takeoff roll? I've never had that in a sim or RL (granted i've never flown a Viper ! lol)... ... I'm tracking very nicely with NWS and then when I turn it off about 80 kts I often have to put a lot of boot in quickly and it often seems like there is a real lack of authority. 

I'll keep practicing, just this was a new struggle for me

Well...neither have I.  It has taken quite a bit for seconds, if that, when slow enough that the authority isn't there, or the crosswind is nasty, or I didn't quite get as lined up as I should.  It's pretty rare to have NWS on for any part of a takeoff roll.  When I think my landings are pretty good I start dialing in crosswind, in some cases a lot of it, because that's where landing gets entertaining and the first few seconds of takeoff are most difficult.

[bones1014]

I just leave NWS on.

[silverdevil]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:48 AM, FireHazard said:

Thank you, as has been mentioned by others, how much does crosswind affect the takeoff or rollout in DCS? I've not really had this modelled in other sims so perhaps not expecting it... 

Is differential braking normal for the Viper? I've not come across this for landing. Everything I've read indicates that it's all about the rudder until slow and then NWS? 

Thank you! But full boot on a takeoff roll? I've never had that in a sim or RL (granted i've never flown a Viper ! lol)... ... I'm tracking very nicely with NWS and then when I turn it off about 80 kts I often have to put a lot of boot in quickly and it often seems like there is a real lack of authority. 

I'll keep practicing, just this was a new struggle for me

another thing i have been doing is to monitor my ground speed exactly. on the UFC LIST button > 6 button. lower right corner show G/S. the HUD stops at 60 and immediately goes to 0. and that is way too fast for the NWS.

[FireHazard]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:57 AM, Raisuli said:

Well...neither have I.  It has taken quite a bit for seconds, if that, when slow enough that the authority isn't there, or the crosswind is nasty, or I didn't quite get as lined up as I should.  It's pretty rare to have NWS on for any part of a takeoff roll.  When I think my landings are pretty good I start dialing in crosswind, in some cases a lot of it, because that's where landing gets entertaining and the first few seconds of takeoff are most difficult.

I have read from multiple sources the Viper procedure is NWS on during the initial part of the takeoff roll, disengaging about 70 kts...  

[silverdevil]

37 minutes ago, FireHazard said:

I have read from multiple sources the Viper procedure is NWS on during the initial part of the takeoff roll, disengaging about 70 kts...  

for take off i do that. i can watch the hud go from 0 to 60 and thats my cue to turn NWS off.

[FireHazard]

37 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

for take off i do that. i can watch the hud go from 0 to 60 and thats my cue to turn NWS off.

It's possible I'm simply relying on the NWS for too long, so when I disengage it I'm making a very sudden switch from wheels to rudder and hence having control issues. 

I will do some testing. 

[silverdevil]

2 hours ago, FireHazard said:

It's possible I'm simply relying on the NWS for too long, so when I disengage it I'm making a very sudden switch from wheels to rudder and hence having control issues. 

I will do some testing. 

aye. the viper can be really squirrely on the ground at anything more that 15. but it does have a large tail surface which allows rudder control at lower to higher speeds. 

[Temetre]

Am 27.4.2023 um 16:44 schrieb skywalker22:

But I also find it strange, why F-16 seems to steer into one side at all times while driving on the runway, I was always wondering why is that so. Why I just cannot go straight.

Probably some weird mix of being a light plane with strange aerodynamics, having a single powerful engine and the gear-setup/tuning.

I remember reading about accidental take-offs while taxiing with the F-16 prototypes. Maybe its just naturally instable on takeoff, or the nose-gear is squishy to avoid going nose up during taxi, and that cases the side-steer while starting.

[FireHazard]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:54 AM, silverdevil said:

aye. the viper can be really squirrely on the ground at anything more that 15. but it does have a large tail surface which allows rudder control at lower to higher speeds. 

So relying on NWS too long is part of the problem. If I ensure I'm going straight and kick the NWS off as soon as the speed comes alive at 60, I'm then able to keep straight with a good amount of rudder... still it's a lot more rudder than feels "right" but at least there is controllability. 

[Willdass]

@FireHazard Aileron into the wind will help you a lot with staying on centerline during take off/ touch down

[ACME_WIdgets]

Check your rudder exponential curve.  If it's set to 20 or more, then you have little rudder authority at less than about 40% pedal throw.
As others stated, turn of NWS on takeoff at 70-90ish ktx, reverse for landing w/crosswind.

[void68]

I keep the NWS on as long as I need it. With asymmetrical loadout and crosswinds it's better to have too much input than too little. Also in rare occasions of tailwind landings (or takeoffs) the rudder's force is down too zero far too early.

Put a curve on your rudder and you can gently steer the F16 even with 120kts GS with the NWS. That's better than not enough steering! Saw lots of F16 got trashed due to too little input than to too much input.