Does it have datalink?

[_BringTheReign_]

23 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

AGM-65s were locked onto targets by using the same paddle switch- yes, it had one- for the Nose Wheel Steering.

AGM-65 track enable (slew) was activated by depressing the ARR button (thumb button on the side of the grip), not the paddle, and lock was initiated on release of that button. 

21 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

The stick for slewing Mavs was a hat switch on the main control stick that doubled as trim and nose wheel steering.

Mav slew was accomplished by the forward hand controller, it's a small joystick next to the throttle 

 

Back seater used the HCU for mavs

[Hulkbust44]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:41 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

The stick for slewing Mavs was a hat switch on the main control stick that doubled as trim and nose wheel steering.

As for the aircraft itself, a lot of it is coloured by the fact that early on in its life, trying to pull at high AoA lead to the aircraft stalling out at anywhere above ~21 degrees due to an effect called Adverse Yaw, where the wing shape caused a stall on one side, and therefore the plane would suddenly roll in the opposite direction of the intended direction. Many training programs and workarounds (including rolling with rudder only) had to be invented to fix this, but apparently, slats fixed that. I'm not sure about that though.

As for the size, keep in mind that the F-4E has a thrust to weight of ~1.27 unloaded at optimum velocity (1400km/h) while the MiG-21bis has the same at about ~1.32 when on the Emergency Afterburner set that can only be used at high altitude and even then for only 3 minutes unless you want to turn the engine into slag.

The MiG-21bis- a 1972 plane- also suffers from silly things such as compressor stalling if you adjust the throttle too fast- something that, you know, you might do in the middle of a pitched dogfight, as well as having been solved by the US in the 1950s- and has a wing shape that bleeds energy extremely quickly. The F-4E meanwhile uses an almost completely lifting body design and conserves energy much better.

There's also minor facts like how the F-4E can engage and destroy targets up to 20-30nm away while the MiG-21 can't hit anything beyond 10 on a good day. You know, just minor things. Within visual range in the 1 circle, the MiG-21 has the advantage, but in terms of an actual sustained fight, in theory at least, the F-4E should win.

As for the MiG-23, the MiG-23 is a joke within visual range. I wouldn't underestimate its BVR capabilities, though.

 

The MIG can still turn inside a late slat Phantom? My resident SME (F-4E and F-16C bk 30 driver) mentioned that the F-4 with it's new slats was more maneuverable than the Viper. I know the Viper tried to optimised it's STR, but comparatively was it's one circle worse than a Fishbed?

[Temetre]

Tbh id be surprised if the Mig has a better 1 circle. Even id it can turn extremely hard, it bleeds so much energy and becomes unresponsive very quickly. Idk if the emergency afterburner at low dogfight altitudes makes up for that.

Im really interested in how far we can push the F-4 in dogfights, in comparision. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Temetre

[SgtPappy]

6 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

The MIG can still turn inside a late slat Phantom? My resident SME (F-4E and F-16C bk 30 driver) mentioned that the F-4 with it's new slats was more maneuverable than the Viper. I know the Viper tried to optimised it's STR, but comparatively was it's one circle worse than a Fishbed?

The real life data suggests that the MiG-21bis and slatted F-4E have more or less the same max instantaneous turn rate with the F-4E having a much better max sustained turn rate. See the data compiled in this post on the extensive thread here below.

Note that neither the MiG or F-4E come remotely close to the F-16A in either 1 or 2 circle performance: https://web.archive.org/web/20221007030544/http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-16A_Block_15_Falcon_SAC_-_March_1984.pdf

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Bremspropeller]

One thing the F-4 crowd is gonna get really good at, is tanking.

Think "Hornet" but with thirstier motors and more drag.

[Aussie_Mantis]

10 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

The MIG can still turn inside a late slat Phantom? My resident SME (F-4E and F-16C bk 30 driver) mentioned that the F-4 with it's new slats was more maneuverable than the Viper. I know the Viper tried to optimised it's STR, but comparatively was it's one circle worse than a Fishbed?

That... what? 

 

An F-4E somehow outmaneuvering an F-16 makes little to no sense at all.

 

Also, in terms of DCS, I wouldn't be surprised if the MiG-21 does everything comparatively better- F-5E vs MiG-21 balancing, for instance, indicates that the miG-21 might be modelled as doing a bit better than it does IRL- though that might just be the F-5E's comparatively less detailed modelling.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[Gunfreak]

6 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

That... what? 

 

An F-4E somehow outmaneuvering an F-16 makes little to no sense at all.

 

Also, in terms of DCS, I wouldn't be surprised if the MiG-21 does everything comparatively better- F-5E vs MiG-21 balancing, for instance, indicates that the miG-21 might be modelled as doing a bit better than it does IRL- though that might just be the F-5E's comparatively less detailed modelling.

 

Also the MiG21 AI together with the MiG15 AI over perform a lot. Those two planes does not appear to have gotten the BFM improvement that the other jets got. They still fly "old school DCS AI way" doesn't really matter when flying an F15, 16 or 18. But you'll notice it in an F5 and I assume you'll notice it in an F4 too. Much like the pain in the ass it is to fly in an F86 against a MiG 15 AI.

[Silver_Dragon]

The discusion has derail... need recover de CGI talks.

[Kalasnkova74]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:57 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

That... what? 

 

An F-4E somehow outmaneuvering an F-16 makes little to no sense at all.

The key difference is the model. The clean F-16A - which is where most public domain energy charts show- can outturn basically everything. The F-16C is oriented to the air to ground role with reduced maneuverability relative to the -A model. Further, in USAF service the -C mode is not flown clean. Typically they’re carrying two tanks , a targeting pod and a centerline store or ECM pod. 

Im sure there are regimes where an F-4E could out-turn a missionized F-16C (pods, tanks etc) depending on fuel weight and so forth. 

[Dragon1-1]

Anything can outturn the Viper if the fight gets slow. Viper hates being slow with fiery, burning passion. This is especially pronounced in later blocks, which have high wing loading. It can regain speed fast, so this is usually not a problem, but if you get caught in scissors on deck and the other guy flies something that can fight slow, the Viper is pretty much toast. Of course, that position is extremely precarious in a realistic scenario, in any case.

However, since every Viper jock knows slow=dead, this is not something that will usually come up.

[Temetre]

Am 30.10.2023 um 15:43 schrieb Bremspropeller:

One thing the F-4 crowd is gonna get really good at, is tanking.

Think "Hornet" but with thirstier motors and more drag.

People keep saying that, but were flying Mig-21s just fine without tanking.

Am 13.1.2024 um 00:08 schrieb Dragon1-1:

Anything can outturn the Viper if the fight gets slow

Idk, its still got a ton of thrust and a powerful FBW, even at slow speed. I havent tried it, but feels like it should be able to outturne 3rd gen planes at low speeds.

[Dragon1-1]

FBW is not "powerful" in a sense of allowing more control, it stops the Viper from departing, but actually limits its elevator authority. The only thing thrust is good for in that situation is getting fast again, which is useful, but in scissors, this can lose you the fight. If you try to turn when slow, massive drag from high AoA you'll be pulling will cancel out all of that thrust of yours.

The Viper turns into a pig below 250kts, and should not go below 300kts. This is a fairly well known issue Viper jocks have to work around. The correct way of handling a slow fight is to get fast and get out of there, at which Viper excels. It's simply not going to outturn a lighter aircraft with a lower wing loading, or even a heavier aircraft with a much bigger wing, like the Phantom. Remember, the F-4 originated as a carrier jet, meaning it had to be very controllable at low speeds. It would probably beat the Viper below 250kts pretty easily. Of course, any Viper jock who gets that slow without a plan to get fast again fully deserves what's coming to him.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Temetre said:

People keep saying that, but were flying Mig-21s just fine without tanking.

The Wright Flyer also flew just fine without tanking.

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Viper turns into a pig below 250kts, and should not go below 300kts. This is a fairly well known issue Viper jocks have to work around. The correct way of handling a slow fight is to get fast and get out of there, at which Viper excels. It's simply not going to outturn a lighter aircraft with a lower wing loading, or even a heavier aircraft with a much bigger wing, like the Phantom. Remember, the F-4 originated as a carrier jet, meaning it had to be very controllable at low speeds. It would probably beat the Viper below 250kts pretty easily. Of course, any Viper jock who gets that slow without a plan to get fast again fully deserves what's coming to him.

That's mostly considering contemporary aircraft designs like an F-15. On an equal skill-level, the Viper will still beat the F-4. No matter if fast or slow. At 250KIAS, the F-4 pilot will have half his brain occupied with not departing the jet.

The controllability of the F-4 in the groove comes mostly from the blown droops and blown flaps. Bring the flaps up and the non-slatted jet will make you re-consider your statement quickly. A slatted bird will let you get away easier, but it's still no first/second gen MiG-21.

Doesn't seem like that was much of a thing when the F-16A came fresh from the factory with lots of high-grade F-4 weapons instructers around to put that hypothesis to the test.

[Dragon1-1]

10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The controllability of the F-4 in the groove comes mostly from the blown droops and blown flaps. Bring the flaps up and the non-slatted jet will make you re-consider your statement quickly. A slatted bird will let you get away easier, but it's still no first/second gen MiG-21.

Doesn't seem like that was much of a thing when the F-16A came fresh from the factory with lots of high-grade F-4 weapons instructers around to put that hypothesis to the test.

I was talking our F-16 versus our F-4, so a fat modern Viper versus a slatted F-4. Remember, both engine power and weight grew as the Viper evolved, the wings did not. That said, fighting the Viper slow was never much of a thing. Those high grade weapons instructors were smart enough not to get slow in first place. They wouldn't engage the Phantom where it had the advantage.

And no, 250kts is very much doable in our F-4. A skilled Phantom jock will not "have his hands full" at this speed, he'll be able to turn pretty well using the rudder and put the Viper on his nose. FYI, the F-4 was at 140 to 160kts in the groove, the Viper falls out of the sky if you let it get much below 170. Don't try to shoehorn your favorite jet into the one situation it's really not good at handling. Ask any RL Viper jock and they'll tell you they simply avoid getting slow. You may not be able to find any F-4s taking advantage of it, but I'm sure aggressor F-5 drivers have plenty of stories of baiting newbie Viper drivers into trying to compete out of their element.

[WinterH]

I think if you let it as an F-16 pilot, some stuff like MiG-19, MiG-17 etc could out maneuver F-16 when it is very, veeeeeery slow but, things really shouldn't go there, and even when you get somewhat slow, it is very easy for F-16 to claw back that speed. Besides, unlike those MiGs, F-4 isn't known for being controllable/maneuverable when slow, even with slats afaik.

I'm a life long professional F-16 hater , but even still, I'll have to admit that it was indeed made to be a dogfighting monster, and for the most part achieved that just fine.

On 1/15/2024 at 7:18 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

I was talking our F-16 versus our F-4, so a fat modern Viper versus a slatted F-4. Remember, both engine power and weight grew as the Viper evolved, the wings did not.

Technically yes, but those fat new Vipers in fact accelerate hell of a lot better than older ones as far as I know, and old ones were pretty great in acceleration themselves.

On 1/15/2024 at 7:18 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

That said, fighting the Viper slow was never much of a thing.

Yeah, essentially this. Now, I suppose if we are discussing average DCS Joe Stickmann, including myself :P, yes, there will be folks who get suckered in to "I'll turn as tightly as possible, anything else be damned" in an F-16 every now and then probably. But even then I personally wouldn't expect an F-4 to be able to do much, because F-4 itself isn't an aircraft known for good behavior at lower speeds, and the F-16, especially the one with an 2000s engine in it, will be able to accelerate out of those situations a lot easier by just letting go of the stick :P. The same caliber pilot in an F-4 probably would already have departed controlled flight at that speed anyway.

Edited January 17, 2024 by WinterH

[Dragon1-1]

3 minutes ago, WinterH said:

I think if you let it as an F-16 pilot, some stuff like MiG-19, MiG-17 etc could out maneuver F-16 when it is very, veeeeeery slow but, things really shouldn't go there, and even when you get somewhat slow, it is very easy for F-16 to claw back that speed.

Exactly what I've been saying. Unless you're stuck in a lufbery circle on deck, in which case something had gone terribly wrong already, the Viper's greatest asset is the ability to get fast, fast. That's the first thing it's supposed to do when it's slow. Trying to win a scissors at 250kts, especially against something that got its start on carriers, is basically handing yourself to your opponent on a platter. Unload, get fast, extend a little, get back in and don't let him catch you slow again. Nothing good ever comes from ending up on the back side of the curve.

4 minutes ago, WinterH said:

The same caliber pilot in an F-4 probably would already have departed controlled flight at that speed anyway.

That's why I'm looking forward to the Phantom so much - you actually have to fly it.  Viper's FBW makes things easy, but the Phantom requires some finesse on the controls to fly it to its best (or even just to avoid falling out of the sky). Poor pilots won't go far with it, but a great pilot could give anyone a hard time. 

[Bremspropeller]

The early F-4s could go slower than 140 thanks to being light and BLC. The flaps were tested during the 60s, when they were trying to figure out if there was any use in them for BFM. They found there was none. Hard wing jets would need to stay fast or have a golden hands guy doing slow speed stuff. It's not like they didn't lose like 100 jets due to departures before the slats. The slats helped quite a bit in flying the jet slow, but they didn't take all the edge off the adverse yaw and they certainly didn't change the fact that there was no HOTAS and no advanced BFM modes to help the pilot achieving his goal. Naturally, going fast-fast means you can use the vertical, while Dr. Strangelove in his 60s boomer-jet is tied to being a flat-earther.

So while bubba Rhinodriver is using all his limbs to get some tone, get into prarameters and squeeze off a Sidewinder, ole Doug Masters is just listening to 80s hair metal, yanking on that early non-movable sidestick with his boots on the floor, spitting epic one-liners while easily foxxing that salty mustache-model in his sweaty flight suit.

 

Disclaimer: Message may contain traces of nuts, bolts and organic humor.

 

 

 

[Temetre]

Am 15.1.2024 um 17:18 schrieb Dragon1-1:

I was talking our F-16 versus our F-4, so a fat modern Viper versus a slatted F-4. Remember, both engine power and weight grew as the Viper evolved, the wings did not. That said, fighting the Viper slow was never much of a thing. Those high grade weapons instructors were smart enough not to get slow in first place. They wouldn't engage the Phantom where it had the advantage.

And no, 250kts is very much doable in our F-4. A skilled Phantom jock will not "have his hands full" at this speed, he'll be able to turn pretty well using the rudder and put the Viper on his nose. FYI, the F-4 was at 140 to 160kts in the groove, the Viper falls out of the sky if you let it get much below 170. Don't try to shoehorn your favorite jet into the one situation it's really not good at handling. Ask any RL Viper jock and they'll tell you they simply avoid getting slow. You may not be able to find any F-4s taking advantage of it, but I'm sure aggressor F-5 drivers have plenty of stories of baiting newbie Viper drivers into trying to compete out of their element.

But the F-16 has a bunch of stuff too. Like, a much more modern wing design, with stuff like vortex generators that should help at low speed/high AoA. Also less draggy design, and FBW should also help with optimizing use of lift+control surfaces. The modern engine is probably also more versatile over different flight regimes, so maybe better at low speed/high AoA than the F4s old turbojets?

Id be surprised if the F4 can keep up with that, but Id be very curious to try. The Viper really isnt *that* bad at low speed maneuvering, it just suffers against other 4th gens, which include some of the best 'one turn' dogfighters ever made. I would find it seriously impressive if the Phantom can keep up with that!  

Edited January 17, 2024 by Temetre

[WinterH]

Yeah, even as a professional F-16 hater, and a self-proclaimed champion of "F-4 is A LOT more maneuverable than people give it credit for", I don't expect F-4E to be even remotely able to keep up with F-16 even at low speeds, let alone beat it.

Edited January 17, 2024 by WinterH

[Temetre]

Tho I suspect the F-4 E might end up being the best dogfighter in 1975, short of an F-14A. Probably better at turning and nose control than most things flying around, and with pretty strong rating-performance to boot.

What do you guys think?  

[Hiob]

35 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Tho I suspect the F-4 E might end up being the best dogfighter in 1975, short of an F-14A. Probably better at turning and nose control than most things flying around, and with pretty strong rating-performance to boot.

What do you guys think?  

I think, you're wrong.  (but happy to try)

[=475FG= Dawger]

43 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Tho I suspect the F-4 E might end up being the best dogfighter in 1975, short of an F-14A. Probably better at turning and nose control than most things flying around, and with pretty strong rating-performance to boot.

What do you guys think?  

I hope the F-4E is as overmodeled in a slow speed fight as the F-14. It will be a monster if it is. 

[Temetre]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Hiob:

I think, you're wrong.  (but happy to try)

I wanna know what aircraft you think is better in the same scenario/year xD

vor 3 Minuten schrieb =475FG= Dawger:

I hope the F-4E is as overmodeled in a slow speed fight as the F-14. It will be a monster if it is. 

Seems pretty realistic by all accounts, I dont think its overmodelled. Compared to, say, the Mig-21 thats perfectly stable till you hit 30 AoA or so where it departs  

[Hiob]

14 minutes ago, Temetre said:

I wanna know what aircraft you think is better in the same scenario/year xD

Don't take me too serious on the matter. The F-4 will beat anything that is piloted by myself! 

But to answer seriously - as you already mentioned, the Tomcat, the Viper, F-5, any Mig, any Mirage...... (tbh I don't know from the top of my head, which exactly are the time appropriate variants....)

Edit: Wasn't the poor dogfighting results in Vietnam precisely the reason for the developement of the Viper?

Edited January 17, 2024 by Hiob

[Temetre]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Hiob:

But to answer seriously - as you already mentioned, the Tomcat, the Viper, F-5, any Mig, any Mirage...... (tbh I don't know from the top of my head, which exactly are the time appropriate variants....)

You think the Mig-21 and Mirage F1 will outturn the F4E, that would be the ~75? Im relatively convinced that wont be a thing, probably not even the F-5 with its silly underpowered engine.

F-16A introduction is a bit later I think, but yeah, that will beat anything.