Constant whooshing cockpit sound

[draconus]

20 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

I think partly the reason though is in RL you'd *feel* the afterburner, whereas you can't in a sim. So being able to *hear* it becomes more important.

They also said that you'd not "feel" the engines IRL.

[AhSoul]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

They also said that you'd not "feel" the engines IRL.

Oh really? Fair enough then  

[Caldera]

LOL 

I guess some are more relaxed about it.

On 6/25/2023 at 8:03 PM, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

They “demand” realism, but they don’t really mean it. Not if it’s annoying, difficult or bothersome.

As I am sitting in at my desk not strapped in to the chair in any way (gravity works just fine in all cases), with my toy flight controls in front of me, staring at my large 2d computer screen, sipping on a cold beer while looking for the correct key to press on my PC keyboard while wearing my trackIR ball cap with out any type of ear noise protection (much less noise cancelling).  And I am often reminded that is not actually where I am at the moment.  Where in reality I am at 23000 feet, 500 knots, 4.5g in a 15 degree left hand turn and a 30 degree down angle looking through the HUD watching the ground as it is coming up to say "Hello There!".

One could argue for a long time about realism in video games... 

 

For my part, I just noticed that the ECS noise in the F-15E module was noticeably louder than any flight sim that I had played before.  Mostly because I also noticed that for at least one of the F-15E (Radar AA) training flights that the ECS switch is in Manual vice Auto, which sort of clued me in.  Up until then I had thought it was mostly engine noise, as initially I was some what overwhelmed by the whole experience.

Caldera

Edited June 27, 2023 by Caldera

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

Be careful not to unload too much into negative G, you’ll have beer all over your computer room!

I get the sense that most sim players place ease of use over realism. They say that they want realism, and complain about “immersion”, until something is too hard. Developers don’t want an arcade product, but they also don’t want to make their product too frustrating, even if that’s the way it was in real life, or their module won’t sell. I bet Razbam caves and provides a slider, even though cockpit noise is part of the F15E pilot’s experience and is proper “immersion”.

[evilnate]

Why do people care about how others configure their sounds? Where is the harm?

[davidrbarnette]

3 minutes ago, evilnate said:

Why do people care about how others configure their sounds? Where is the harm?

I'd say for the same reason that there are endless debates about what weapons should be available on which aircraft (reference the debate that took place about whether F-16's should be able to carry four HARMs)... because people are people.

The surprising thing to me is that there isn't one comment regarding the ECS noise to the effect of "finally, a developer got the sound right!"

[evilnate]

Difference between potential armament and sound levels seems more like a car having 5 or 6 gears vs what color options are available. IMO let people adjust to their preferences and move on in life or get triggered every time you see a yellow BMW driving on the roads.

[Hiob]

Oh Lord, I am so sick of this conversation. 

People are actively propagandizing against the wish for better audible feedback. FFS WHY?

BeCauSe IT is nOt auDiBLe in The ReaL cRaFT!!!!!11111111 

Well guess, what - when you stomp it in the ground or get shot down, you can't just hop into the next jet and take off again. How about we introduce a mandatory break after each bail out for a couple of physical exams?

Who in their right mind can deny, that we desk pilots lack A F$#K-TON of sensoric feedback? We just want a good sound engine to compensate for that. If anything else, THIS will ADD to a overall(!) realistic experience.

Nobody is suggesting to tinker with actual performance numbers.

 

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

10 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

I'd say for the same reason that there are endless debates about what weapons should be available on which aircraft (reference the debate that took place about whether F-16's should be able to carry four HARMs)... because people are people.

The surprising thing to me is that there isn't one comment regarding the ECS noise to the effect of "finally, a developer got the sound right!"

The reaction always seems to be spring loaded to complaining instead of assuming that the developer did their homework and using SME input, got the feature correct. 

Cockpits are loud, the assumption in tactical jets is that helmets and earplugs can be worn if necessary. Even airliners are loud at cruise speeds. I recorded the noise level in a 757 at .82 Mach at 85db, the 737 is well above that. 

The good news is that loud ECS’s usually mean that even with a huge heat soaking canopy, the cockpit cools well.

Maybe Razbam could add an option- “Hear like in Helmet - Hear like in Helmet Wearing Earplugs”.

[davidrbarnette]

27 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Oh Lord, I am so sick of this conversation. 

People are actively propagandizing against the wish for better audible feedback. FFS WHY?

BeCauSe IT is nOt auDiBLe in The ReaL cRaFT!!!!!11111111 

Well guess, what - when you stomp it in the ground or get shot down, you can't just hop into the next jet and take off again. How about we introduce a mandatory break after each bail out for a couple of physical exams?

Who in their right mind can deny, that we desk pilots lack A F$#K-TON of sensoric feedback? We just want a good sound engine to compensate for that. If anything else, THIS will ADD to a overall(!) realistic experience.

Nobody is suggesting to tinker with actual performance numbers.

 

Actually, I couldn't agree more... if people want better sounds, by all means, have at it. Just pointing out that there is a weird dynamic in the flight sim community about what "realism" people really want.

If people really wanted "realism", they'd need to make the area where they play about 100 degrees fahrenheit, smell like a moldy locker room, spend an hour briefing on weather, control agencies, and comms, then jump in a cockpit where some of the systems may or may not function in that given jet on that given day. I'm always amused when someone is like "the F-16 is junk because it doesn't sustain a 9g turn while half-loaded at 22,000 feet because rEaliSm!!!", then complains that Heatblur added dynamic cockpits that show the kind of wear a jet has in real life.

Also, I'd commend Razbam... they actually got the audio right. 

 

Posting this also made me realize how bad the weather and ATC simulations are in DCS...

[draconus]

Finally a developer got the sound right!

[Jayhawk1971]

If you "crash" in a military grade simulator, you also can "hop into the next jet and take off again" (after a very lengthy and thorough debrief). Yet those things still try to simulate the aircraft to the best of their technical and budgetary capabilities. And I bet "alleviating pilot inconvenience" is rather low on the priority list. Hyperbole.

If RAZBAM's SME's deem the in-cockpit sound to be realistic, so be it. It's not unbearable in any way, shape or form.

OTOH, if RAZBAM is willing and able to allocate resources and dev time to implement a volume slider under the "special" tab - without interfering with more immediate and pressing issues (like fixing bugs and implementing promised features) - I don't see why they shouldn't add it as an option. Options are good.

It's all about priorities, though, and IMO, "quality of life" features that don't add to the module (actually take away from authenticity in this case) should have a lower priority than, for example,  game-breaking bugs.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Jayhawk1971

[Caldera]

2 hours ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

Be careful not to unload too much into negative G, you’ll have beer all over your computer room!

How true, how very true...

Caldera

[SmirkingGerbil]

Just set the ECS on low. I found that dinking around for a few minutes when I noticed it was loud.

Others have suggested pushing out left or right and get a reduction.

Try that and/or setting it to low.

Like others have said, their will be consequences when turning it off in the future, because it cools all your avionics and compute.

But seriously, whether "real" or not, I think it is cool (pun intended), for the level of detail, and you can turn it to low or move off to left or right.

Not a big deal.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Amazes me why others would object to simple quality of life game options that would not affect them. Yes it's still a game. 

[tusler]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:14 PM, Caldera said:

H60,

When this happened to me it was that I had my landing gear selected to be up, I use a controller switch, when on the ground.

I get this thumping sound also, I have noticed the thumping sound is in complete synch with the radar sweep left then right, the thump happens everytime the sweep hits the corner of the display. I guess maint. needs to adjust the stops on the radar LoL.

[agamemnon_b5]

9 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

If RAZBAM's SME's deem the in-cockpit sound to be realistic, so be it. It's not unbearable in any way, shape or form.

Not being unbearable is a matter of opinion.

That being said, the constantly waffling back and forth on the Harrier's systems made me lose a lot of faith in RAZBAM's "SME" (going from method A to method B to method C because it was correct, only to go back to A because actually, that is correct).

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

Physically scanned radars do thump (it’s felt, not heard) when they reach the end of their limits. Pilots could tell some of the modes and scan volumes by the seat of the pants. 

The “Whooshing” discussion is razzing people for demanding realism, then complaining when they get it. The F15E video Rainmaker put up shows that the cockpit is extremely loud. 

Doesn’t bother me, seems pretty mild compared to the video, especially using “Hear like in Helmet” and adjusting the sliders. Everyone’s hearing is different too. Young players might hear higher tones that make it seem worse than more “seasoned pilots”. 

[agamemnon_b5]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Amazes me why others would object to simple quality of life game options that would not affect them. Yes it's still a game. 

I call this the Subway argument (Subway is a sandwich chain in the US, for those you don't know).

"I don't like tuna so no one should have a tuna sub!"

People forget we aren't in multi-million dollar machines and compromises should at least be considered for the purposes of gameplay (like emphasizing audio feedback to make up for physical feedback).

I guarantee everyone in the "ultra realism no compromise" crowd has used pause and active pause at some point.

[ARM505]

I've spent more than twenty years operating aircraft, and my experience in jets (airliners, specifically Boeing 737 and 777's) is that the ECS is the overriding noise in cockpit. It'll be even worse in a fighter. In airliners you can barely hear the engines, and of course I can't comment on engine and especially afterburner noise in fighters, but the aircon noise is very realistic (it would be from the packs in an airliner, when they're on, as well as the recirculation fans, if all the cockpit vents are open it sounds like a hairdryer - and we don't wear helmets or ear pro). It actually stood out to me in the F15E module when I started it up for the first time, 'ah, somebody has made it sound like reality!' We have variable vents, and you can close them to reduce the noise a bit. I can only imagine that the ECS in the F15 needs to very potent in a glass bubble canopy aircraft that regularly operate in extremely hot environments.

 

It's not like this hasn't been discussed before either! The PMDG B737NG for MSFS's 'old style standby altimeter vibrator noise' stands out to me, with people firstly driving themselves mad trying to find what was making the noise (it's a 'company option' to select between the old style physical altimeter and the new style ISFD), then wanting an option to turn it off or down. In reality, the thing is just as irritating, and crews will simply pull the circuit breaker for the vibrator *cough* not me of course *cough*.

 

tl;dr They might make it optional, but it's not like there aren't enough options to change it now already.

[HILOK]

48 minutes ago, ARM505 said:

I've spent more than twenty years operating aircraft, and my experience in jets (airliners, specifically Boeing 737 and 777's) is that the ECS is the overriding noise in cockpit. It'll be even worse in a fighter. In airliners you can barely hear the engines, and of course I can't comment on engine and especially afterburner noise in fighters, but the aircon noise is very realistic (it would be from the packs in an airliner, when they're on, as well as the recirculation fans, if all the cockpit vents are open it sounds like a hairdryer - and we don't wear helmets or ear pro). It actually stood out to me in the F15E module when I started it up for the first time, 'ah, somebody has made it sound like reality!' We have variable vents, and you can close them to reduce the noise a bit. I can only imagine that the ECS in the F15 needs to very potent in a glass bubble canopy aircraft that regularly operate in extremely hot environments.

 

It's not like this hasn't been discussed before either! The PMDG B737NG for MSFS's 'old style standby altimeter vibrator noise' stands out to me, with people firstly driving themselves mad trying to find what was making the noise (it's a 'company option' to select between the old style physical altimeter and the new style ISFD), then wanting an option to turn it off or down. In reality, the thing is just as irritating, and crews will simply pull the circuit breaker for the vibrator *cough* not me of course *cough*.

 

tl;dr They might make it optional, but it's not like there aren't enough options to change it now already.

 i have nothing to add other than the 'hear like in helmet' option should significantly attenuate ECS noise

[draconus]

5 hours ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

I guarantee everyone in the "ultra realism no compromise" crowd has used pause and active pause at some point.

You're surprised that simulation can start and end whenever we want? Or do you expect F-15E module to realistically model the pilot going home and sleep with his wife?

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb agamemnon_b5:

I call this the Subway argument (Subway is a sandwich chain in the US, for those you don't know).

"I don't like tuna so no one should have a tuna sub!"

No, that is not the case.

It's like you ordered a "tuna" sandwich (wasn't there a scandal that when tested they didn't find any tuna DNA on that sandwich? But I digress.), but there's too much oil in it for your taste. Subway says their SME (sandwich matter experts) confirmed that this is absolutely the right amount of oil. You want your tuna to be less oily, so you ask for an optional "downgrade" on the oil front. Subway is a fast-food chain with strictly defined processes, so it's not that easy to implement. 

Most of the other customers are either fine with or indifferent to the amount of oil, and even though some TSP's (tuna sandwich purists) demand that none shall tinker with it, most would agree that if Subway offered an optional TLO (tuna, less oily), they would be fine with it. As long as it doesn't affect the original sandwich. 

And there's the rub: the original sandwich is still in early eating access, and needs a lot of work as it is. Once the sandwich is (close to) feature complete (tomatoes have been added), no one would have a problem with an option.

(first draft had "pepper", but I remembered that salt and pepper are being treated like optional condiments at Subway. I haven't been to any fast-food chain in a very long time )

Zitat

Not being unbearable is a matter of opinion.

If it were truly unbearable, everyone would complain. From what I've seen here and on discord, that is not the case. I'll give you inconvenient, annoying, distracting (objectively speaking). I personally don't mind, as I've been desensitized by the Tomcat's ECS.  

Edited June 28, 2023 by Jayhawk1971

[Scott-S6]

There's an easy solution - play the ambient sound through speakers and the headset sound through your headset or helmet. Not only will your headset/helmet attenuate the ECS noise, you now have the ability to easily adjust the volumes of ambient and headset sound independently.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Scott-S6

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

1 hour ago, Scott-S6 said:

There's an easy solution - play the ambient sound through speakers and the headset sound through your headset or helmet. Not only will your headset/helmet attenuate the ECS noise, you now have the ability to easily adjust the volumes of ambient and headset sound independently.

 

That’s a solution worth exploring. There is something strange about using a noise cancelling headset to attenuate artificially generated noise though!