need evidence F1 EE flight model tweaks coming?

[CrazyGman]

On 7/2/2023 at 7:00 PM, Harley Davidson said:

I think I have just about everything in the DCS aircraft line up and 2 choppers, it seems to me like the F1 is the worst flying jet right now. A few years ago the f-16 wasn't that great and they adjusted the flight model to represent how it actually flys. I'm hoping that there are updates on the way for this beautiful bird because you may as we fly a Cessna in combat. I fly mostly single player and I know that the AI can fly like UFO's but wow the F1 will not out turn anything...  well maybe a C-130.

I really hope they change it to make it fly like I've read it does instead of a little pull on the stick and you get that wet fart and you basically hover. I've tried out fight F4's, su 17s,  mig 19's and most 3 gen jets, its just terrible. I thought the F1 was supposed to be really good for its time?

The Mirage F1 flight model is fine, and at good weight and loadout she is awesome. I fly both the F1-CE and F1-EE on ECW and do very well fighting all opponents from F-5s and A4's to F-86s, and even back when fighting MiG-19s and MiG-21 when it was part of blue force. The tweaks that Aerges has done are subtle but noticable throughout the last year, and the plane is in a good state. Just watch my video here

And here are my stats on the server in case your wondering, and about 85% of those hours in the F1-CE are with guns and AIM-9B, So trust me it's more then a match for it's contemporaries in game

Half fuel and wingtips only if your going to dogfight, otherwise boom and through.

Edited July 4, 2023 by CrazyGman

[peyvolt]

hace 9 horas, Thinder dijo:

Already done multiple times...

The last were a video from Ate (Ex-MN Rafale pilot) interviewing a Mirage F1 pilot, some explanation on how a F1 couldn't out turn most contemporary aircraft on the basis of its wing loading with those of the Mig-21 BIS, F-4 and F-105 to compare, what is needed for good turn rates, and so on, as I said DONE, only to get the same reply...

It's not with me they should discuss those issues, I'm using my right to complain as a paying customer here, but apparently it is too difficult to get in touch with an AdlA Squadron, Dassault-Aviation or simply get in touch with the pilots Ate have interviewed???

As for my sources, I have explained clearly that I was unable to disclose them, their role with AdlA are not of public relation but active Squadron and as such, I wasn't given any details and if I had I wouldn't disclose them, as I said I served with AdlA and I know the drill, for demo pilots and those interviewed by Ate it's a different matter.

 

@ThinderAerges has two real former mirage f1 pilots making test every day, one of them has 3200 hours in mirage F1 CE, EE, and M versions between 1981 to 1998 and 2004 to 2007. He was Tester Mirage F1 pilot and instructor in Mirage F1B version, The other pilot has more than 1000 hours and he was tester and instructor. Aerges has the best pilots for making this aircraft real in SIM, if both pilots are agree with Performance charts Aerges has to be happy with their job. And of course if many people can help AERGES with other suggestion it will be great.

[HawkEXO]

Funny to read complaints.  I love the flight model... she flies so nice.  Just keep her fast.

[chichowalker]

Reading smear posts from Thinder it looks like only French guys has possession of universal true and they are the only guys that have studied aerodynamics.
Well, comparing former Spanish Mirage F1 pilots experience with someone that has flown light aircraft is easy to understand his own conclusions.
Please, don't make false statements to descredit Aerges amazing work.
Yes, as consumer that pays your modules you have right to certain amount of things, but not everything. This is an early access module, like almost all we have in DCS, so think again in your rights. Viper FCS suffered a big overhaul last year and till that time I dont remember anybody criticizing the module so much, and IIRC, continue being EA.
Apart from my job as fighter pilot, real one, I have been flying DCS a lot of years and almost all modules. Im sure that F1 FM is one of the most accurate, close to manuals and performance tables but continue in progress, like other different modules.
I'm tired of repeating in forums and discord servers that there are lot of people that want Mirage F1 be something that is unreal.
This module requires good pilot skills to fly it properly, good Hotas setup and know his limitations in order to exploit this machine properly.
I'm sorry so much that company developing this is Spanish one, I know that for you guys this is the main problem and reason to criticize the module.

I want to congratulate Aerges for his amazing work and profesionalism of people working there and I hope that they continue working this way.

P.D: I would ask to moderators to ban that kind of destructive and smear posts.

Enviado desde mi SM-G981B mediante Tapatalk

[Harley Davidson]

I also love the mirage f1 but.....  I'm a real life pilot as well and i also own 90% of the DCS modules and fly all of them.  I'm not trying in any way to attack Aerges on their amazing work that they have done with the F1,  I'm just saying the flight model needs tweaking. I cannot believe that this aircraft actually flys like it does in DCS.  I shoot a 530 missile and when I try and manoeuvre to get on the bandits 6, the F1 rolls and pitches like its out of control and the amount of trim needed to actually fly straight and level is crazy.

If this is how it flew in real life God help those who flew it!  I also can't believe that, when hitting the max AOA there is that sudden fall off of speed and that the transition is so sudden with no warning what so ever. Maybe its just my set up but I think that a lot me players are having this issue also. I understand that its very difficult to have it set up for such a wide range of peripherals and computers but there should be a way to do it or tweak it do do so, Even the Mig-21 was nasty at the beginning of development.

Anyway, I just wanted to give my feedback for constructive purposes. To say the flight model is just about perfect at this stage is nuts, go and actually through it around in the air with a Mig -21, Mig-19 or F-5 and you will begin to see what I mean.... spend some time in combat with it.  

[chichowalker]

For sure Aerges apreciates constructive post and susggestions. As you said, FM development continues being in progress but this aircraft was not protected from envelope departures like fly by wire ones, indeed was really easy to enter in high AoA situations bleeding all the speed. High AoA, low speed continue being tweaked, but rest of the envelope matches with performance and E/M tables. The way to flght with those oponents you are refering to is quite different in this aircraft compared with others. It was not designed for dogfights but can fight well in good hands. Think in how many stick movement you need to get 11-13º AoA, 15-17º and more than 17º. This is the key and never enter in this part of the envelope if not fighting against another F1. Payloads drag index, lift and weights are adjusted per manuals. We continue reviewing that but fight with asymetrical configurations is not a good idea in this aircraft but not imposible. This FM is more demanding than rest of the aircraft, like it is in real life. This is and interceptor, one of the best. Very good in air to ground also, but not the best for dog.

Edited July 6, 2023 by chichowalker

[fausete]

Just to clarify what @chichowalker has pointed out. The E/M diagram and the general performance matches our model for the whole envelope according to our evaluation, so unless any issue is found, the performance is not going to change.

What we plan on reviewing medium/long term is the behaviour of the aircraft with asymmetric payloads and the roll stability at very high AoA. Another thing we might consider is adding an option to allow non-FFB users to tweak the emulation of the effects of the force retribution system.

So, all in all, it's going to stay similar to how it is now. At the end of the day, as Chicho says, it's an interceptor that can dogfight when flown to its strengths, but it will never be mopping the floor with other 3rd gens. I'm mainly saying this to avoid creating any hype about big performance increases or big FM changes, because those are not what we will be working on.

Edited July 6, 2023 by fausete

[Harley Davidson]

Thanks Fausete, I guess I'm just not used to that style of fighting...  Kudos to the brave men that fought with it!  It may just be not be my style of aircraft..

 

Cheers

Edited July 6, 2023 by Harley Davidson
spelling :0

[Tango3B]

19 hours ago, chichowalker said:

For sure Aerges apreciates constructive post and susggestions. As you said, FM development continues being in progress but this aircraft was not protected from envelope departures like fly by wire ones, indeed was really easy to enter in high AoA situations bleeding all the speed. High AoA, low speed continue being tweaked, but rest of the envelope matches with performance and E/M tables. The way to flght with those oponents you are refering to is quite different in this aircraft compared with others. It was not designed for dogfights but can fight well in good hands. Think in how many stick movement you need to get 11-13º AoA, 15-17º and more than 17º. This is the key and never enter in this part of the envelope if not fighting against another F1. Payloads drag index, lift and weights are adjusted per manuals. We continue reviewing that but fight with asymetrical configurations is not a good idea in this aircraft but not imposible. This FM is more demanding than rest of the aircraft, like it is in real life. This is and interceptor, one of the best. Very good in air to ground also, but not the best for dog.

 

Exactly this. And if I may add an additional point to chicho‘s excellent description here. The F1, as an interceptor, has a an additional advantage over most of the other contemporary aircraft it may enconter as an opponent. Speed! And she also accelerates reasonably well. You also need to use that to your advantage. So if you‘re fighting on one of these well known Cold War servers always keep your speed up and quickly extend if you can‘t outmaneuver your opponent. This is absolutely valid and no shame. Just extend for some time, then turn back hot an give him a 530. Always make a gameplan if/when to disengage. Think ahead and use your speed. Even a well flown 21 has a hard time catching you on the deck…

[ECTAE]

I don't get it. What if the FM is off by 10%? Are you gonna fly the real F1 any time soon? Would that 10% matter on your fictitious wars? Only one person here responded with verify game time on the F1 (CrazyGman) and for  him its Ok.There you have your DCS's SME.

You guys forget that at the end of the day this is a game and if you don't stop counting rivets, you won't have fun on it. Do you think using IRL procedures and dropping one  mk82 every 9 months would be fun? Go for it. But I'd suggest you better ride that b**tch on MP against other humans and have fun. BTW real pilots were instructed in much much worst simulators than this. I know cause I worked on one of them

Edited July 7, 2023 by ECTAE

[Tango3B]

2 hours ago, ECTAE said:

I don't get it. What if the FM is off by 10%? Are you gonna fly the real F1 any time soon? Would that 10% matter on your fictitious wars? Only one person here responded with verify game time on the F1 (CrazyGman) and for  him its Ok.There you have your DCS's SME.

You guys forget that at the end of the day this is a game and if you don't stop counting rivets, you won't have fun on it. Do you think using IRL procedures and dropping one  mk82 every 9 months would be fun? Go for it. But I'd suggest you better ride that b**tch on MP against other humans and have fun. BTW real pilots were instructed in much much worst simulators than this. I know cause I worked on one of them

 

Let me be very clear here, ECTAE. Some of us who answered the smear posts by Thinder wanted to set something very straight. The FM is fine as it is. Some tuning here and there of course, right? Right. This was the original intention. And we gave tips. Mkay? Also, Chicho happens to be a former Mirage F1 pilot. He gave great advice here. And CrazyGman really made a nice vid showing the beauty of the F1. Also, I hope that my posts concerning some tactics were kind of useful. Unlike Chicho, however I never flew a Mirage. I fly a different jet in a different airforce but you can bet I know exactly how BFM works. Anyway, the three of us wanted to help others who do not understand the very way you need to fight in the F1. And this leads us to the next point. A lot of people flying PvP in DCS take flying and managing the aircraft and its systems very very serious. This is why some of us dove a little deeper into detail. These people want to know this very information. This has certainly nothing to do with rivet counting. Sure, you can hop into the F1 and have fun without all of this knowledege...but isn´t it much nicer to know more about the how and why and actually do stuff right? You decide...

Edited July 7, 2023 by Tango3B

[Fleur79]

Am 4.7.2023 um 13:13 schrieb Thinder:

Already done multiple times...

 

Great. now wee have players who take their fantasy for reality, sorry, if a French Mirage F1 pilot says it's NOT a dogfighter, if the laws of physics and aerodynamics proves it, then I know which video to take seriously, and I also know that this module flight envelop is certainly not that of the real aircraft.

 

 

 

Thunderchief and Phantom haven´t been aerobatic-specialists and yet they were used for it. Amazing, ain´t it? The module will have flaws like all simulated things. She hopefully will be polished to the maximum possible. I only purchased her today and it´s awesome! Very immersive, straightforward and unlike other simulated airframes she doesn´t tolerate just everything. Now I have to learn plenty of new stuff with my shiny bird :).

Edited July 8, 2023 by Fleur79

[Tango3B]

7 hours ago, Fleur79 said:

Thunderchief and Phantom haven´t been aerobatic-specialists and yet they were used for it. Amazing, ain´t it? The module will have flaws like all simulated things. She hopefully will be polished to the maximum possible. I only purchased her today and it´s awesome! Very immersive, straightforward and unlike other simulated airframes she doesn´t tolerate just everything. Now I have to learn plenty of new stuff with my shiny bird :).

 

She will eventually be patched to that standard, my dude. And you made the right decision...the F1 is just about to become polished...being more than a "DCS year" old you can expect to see constant changes in the weeks to come. Currently, I guess that the main focus is on the radar, the INS and certainly bringing the F1BE out. Which actually shouldn´t be too long from now, by the way. Also, a few other systems like the Phimat should be close to completion. So yeah, if you want to fly something really special and exotic, you just can´t go wrong with the F1.

[Harley Davidson]

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

Edited July 9, 2023 by Harley Davidson

[felixx75]

32 minutes ago, Harley Davidson said:

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

 

What is in Wikipedia is definitely the perfect source for reliable and comparable data... Just saying...

[felixx75]

The F1 does not behave as you expect it to. That is also completely ok. But it has been pointed out by many players here, but especially by the devs, that the module in DCS is pretty close to the actual behavior of the real aircraft.
But of course all of them are not right and you are trying to prove that at all costs.
Maybe it is time to realize that it could be that you are NOT right.

As you know, you are not allowed to post manuals here, but there are sites where you can buy them. It is also no secret that Wikipedia is not necessarily the most reliable source in these matters. For example, there is no mention of which version it is. For this reason alone, it does not really make sense to use this.

Edited July 9, 2023 by felixx75

[BIGNEWY]

Please remember our rules when posting, be nice and treat people with respect. 

Thank you 

[diego999]

5 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

 

There's a real Mirage F1 manual on the internet (won't post any links here just in case) stating the ceiling is 55.000 ft.

Maybe those specs are from later variants?

 

[Tango3B]

17 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

 

You are making some pretty false assumptions here. I strongly suggest you double-check your sources. If you want to have access to the appropriate performance data I strongly suggest you take a look at the actual flight manual of the F1ED version which is publicly available and also contains all sorts of performance charts and data you might be interested in. This should hopefully clarify most things for you.
Also, if you have trouble using the radar and you think there is something wrong I would kindly like to ask you to open a different thread and please also include a track. A short vid would also help to support your claim. Thank you.

[gnomechild]

20 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

 

Care to share where you're getting these specs?
null

Landing at 140kts requires specific fuel and stores conditions as well. Do you have this?
null

Edited July 10, 2023 by gnomechild

[felixx75]

1 hour ago, gnomechild said:

Care to share where you're getting these specs?

Obvioiusly --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_F1#Specifications_(Mirage_F1) 

[Bremspropeller]

What ELC posted, plus on the F1 you'll probably hit 135°C inlet temperature first, before hitting it's Mach 2.1 limit.

[Loukuins]

22 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Well I've been doing some testing as the claims of the flight model is realistic.  Some things I've found:  service ceiling for the F1 is 66,000ft, try and get to that altitude, 2. specs say ferry range (combat patrol)is 2:15min with belly tank and super 530's, try that...  Max speed is Mach 2.2, try and get above Mach 2.0 for more than 5 min, engine will blow up and die. Also try landing at 140 knots clean, which was one of the pluses to the F1.....Can't really get any radar lock over 15km...

You say that the flight model is complete, or close? humm...   just saying......

 

With the current radar I can see targets up to 40nm and lock at about 20nm ^^' I'm sorry but sounds like a Skill issue to me 

On 7/9/2023 at 1:22 AM, Tango3B said:

She will eventually be patched to that standard, my dude. And you made the right decision...the F1 is just about to become polished...being more than a "DCS year" old you can expect to see constant changes in the weeks to come. Currently, I guess that the main focus is on the radar, the INS and certainly bringing the F1BE out. Which actually shouldn´t be too long from now, by the way. Also, a few other systems like the Phimat should be close to completion. So yeah, if you want to fly something really special and exotic, you just can´t go wrong with the F1.

That's great to hear ! I'm waiting a bit to see more love on the radar and waiting maybe the BE to get back on it, didn't tried out the FM since 2 months so I can't talk about those and if pilots says it's closer to the real thing then all good, it improved since release and I know it will keep this pace on good updates, the only real issue is the space between updates because how ED handles their stuff and it's not Aerges fault there, hope the best for the team, looking forward of all those updates I can't wait ! 

[IvanK]

Just a snippet regarding 50,000' and 55,000'. These limits are really associated with Human factors limits. Same limits applied to Mirage III. Limit without pressure waistcoat (G-suit type arrangement for your upper torso) was 50,000'. With a pressure waistcoat limit was 55,000' Above 55,000' required a pressure suit. The reasoning is to cover the decompression scenario.

In the depressurisation case the Oxy regulator (>30,000' cabin Alt) will provide overpressure for pressure breathing (a very uncomfortable process that needs to be learnt as its most un natural). as altitude increases so does the overpressure from the Reg. At 50,000' the overpressure is getting so high it becomes a structural issue for the lungs and chest and counterpressure is required to keep them intact. With the pressure waistcoat the counterpressure is the same as the overpressure delivered by the Oxy regulator. Above 55,000' all bets are off and you need to full pressure suit. The pressure suit arrangement requires a different Oxy regulator High altitude set up.

Both the Mirage F1 and the Mirage III have the energy to exceed 55,000' .... but not safely in all circumstances.

Edited July 10, 2023 by IvanK

[diego999]

3 hours ago, IvanK said:

Just a snippet regarding 50,000' and 55,000'. These limits are really associated with Human factors limits. Same limits applied to Mirage III. Limit without pressure waistcoat (G-suit type arrangement for your upper torso) was 50,000'. With a pressure waistcoat limit was 55,000' Above 55,000' required a pressure suit. The reasoning is to cover the decompression scenario.

In the depressurisation case the Oxy regulator (>30,000' cabin Alt) will provide overpressure for pressure breathing (a very uncomfortable process that needs to be learnt as its most un natural). as altitude increases so does the overpressure from the Reg. At 50,000' the overpressure is getting so high it becomes a structural issue for the lungs and chest and counterpressure is required to keep them intact. With the pressure waistcoat the counterpressure is the same as the overpressure delivered by the Oxy regulator. Above 55,000' all bets are off and you need to full pressure suit. The pressure suit arrangement requires a different Oxy regulator High altitude set up.

Both the Mirage F1 and the Mirage III have the energy to exceed 55,000' .... but not safely in all circumstances.

 

 

Good info.

In the Mirage 2000 the hard limit seems to be around 60.000 feet. At that altitude the Tt7 gauge goes into the red and the engine blows up.

I'm talking about DCS. I don't know about the real plane.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by diego999