No REDFOR in most multiplayer servers

[Blackhawk NC]

As a player that exclusively flies REDFOR aircraft, I have noticed that most MP servers do not include REDFOR aircraft and when they do, they place them on the map so it strongly discourages REDFOR pilot participation. This is a phenomenon that I truly do not understand. I search the list of available servers everyday and find it almost impossible to find a server that includes REDFOR aircraft assignments in their missions with a series of tasks that can lead to REDFOR victory. What is the attraction to BLUFOR PVE missions in MP?  You fly against a computer sim, not a real thinking person in the other cockpit. That just sounds like single player with friends. I guess that has an appeal but I don't truly understand it. Are we ever gonna see a server that offers both sides a chance to win while making strategy and tactics important components? A server that that doesn't require REDFOR  to fly 200 miles only to be killed by a one of a hundred BLUFOR manpads or find critical items are indestructible (all of this usually without AWACS coverage). Sadly, it seems to me that even with much better aircraft and armaments, BLUFOR mission designers feel they are at a disadvantage. They set up missions with lots of things for them to kill but with very little chance of coming up against a REDFOR that will actually fight back. With the exception of the SD-10 ( which has its performance parameters changed daily it seems) REDFOR doesn't even have a truly functional fox 3 missile (R-77s have less range that an R-73). Where are the mission designers that will set up a real mission that is fun and challenging for both sides to fly, that is persistent, and presents new challenges each time you log in? One that keeps red aircraft on red side and blue aircraft on blue side. Puts reasonable limits on weapons, like only 2 aim-54s. Gives both sides the chance to win, AND FORCES BOTH SIDES TO FIGHT AGAINST REAL OPPOSING PILOTS in most cases! DCS is becoming a PVE game. It might sell a lot of F-15E's but it is slowly killing a great air combat sim. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THIS WAY? Sorry for the rant!

[Lyrode]

The only two possible way to balance modern Redfor and Bluefor:

1. Jeff vs the world

2. USN vs USAF

Can't deny Redfor are just inferior in most mission settings, and the lack of Redfor full fidelity makes most servers serve the bluefor players.

[F-2]

https://imgur.com/gallery/tX6Zo57

one of the early J-10 prototypes was compromised. The office of naval intelligence used this information to simulate the J-10 for threat analysis in the 1996 and 97 challenges to naval strike

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=buf.39072023126307&view=1up&seq=36

 

I wrote the DIA and ONI they seemed positively inclined to release the documents though it’s a long wait. This is an R29 powered version but the chief engineers memoirs helpfully explains the differences which are primarily the intake and rear fusalage size (the first AL-31F powered prototype was two large and had to be reduced to match the R29 version’s performance). While waiting I’ve gotten some excellent information in the form of two documents on the KLJ-1 radar (predecessor of J-10’s KLJ-3) and a presentation by 14 institute on transmitters on the Klj series of radars including the J-10. So hopefully in a few months a J-10A might be possible.

[Gunfreak]

2 hours ago, Lyrode said:

The only two possible way to balance modern Redfor and Bluefor:

1. Jeff vs the world

2. USN vs USAF

Can't deny Redfor are just inferior in most mission settings, and the lack of Redfor full fidelity makes most servers serve the bluefor players.

Jeff and F14, F14 still has the longest ranged air to air missiles in a flyable plane in DCS. And will continue until the Eurofighter with meteors shows up.

[FlankerKiller]

When the Phantom shows up we can do some Iran vs the world stuff. Most of our jets are mid 2000's. Before 2010. What Redfor was really out there then? Unfortunately modern Redfor jets are not possible. The J-10 would be awesome. But it wouldn't be much different from the Jeff  which can stand in. On the Russian front maybe the SU-30. But it would still be inferior to the NATO jets. Don't get me wrong if it's ever possible to make I'll pre order an SU-30 and an SU-27. But for now the PFM Flaming Cliffs three jets are what we have for the foreseeable future. 

The plus side is the Cold War. With what we already have there is a Mig-23 coming. OctopusG had teased an SU-17/22 that looked to be coming along nicely. It's still going to be an up hill fight against the Bluefor cold war birds. Especially if someone makes an early F-15 and or F-16. But it will be more even. In a mid 2000's, or even modern scenario the Bule jets would be fighting an IADS as well as the Red airforce. It's just the way things were in the mid 2000's. 

[Blackhawk NC]

An actual working R-77-1 would make a big difference. ED can model more modern soviet/russian aircraft for AI but they cant model  a R-77-1 because " we don't have enough information on it". Then how can we have an SU-35 AI but no R-77-1. As BLUFOR aircraft receive more and more improvements and updates, REDFOR becomes less viable. The introduction of the F_15E and the upcoming Eurofighter puts another nail in the coffin of peer to peer combat. I think the clock is ticking on DCS. ED doesn't care about REDFOR and I think it will be its undoing. It is a matter of time before a competitor come in to challenge DCS. I don't think DCS will hold up to real competition. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some aspects of DCS, but if a real competitor came along .......WHO KNOWS?

[Skyhammer]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Blackhawk NC:

An actual working R-77-1 would make a big difference. ED can model more modern soviet/russian aircraft for AI but they cant model  a R-77-1 because " we don't have enough information on it". Then how can we have an SU-35 AI but no R-77-1. As BLUFOR aircraft receive more and more improvements and updates, REDFOR becomes less viable. The introduction of the F_15E and the upcoming Eurofighter puts another nail in the coffin of peer to peer combat. I think the clock is ticking on DCS. ED doesn't care about REDFOR and I think it will be its undoing. It is a matter of time before a competitor come in to challenge DCS. I don't think DCS will hold up to real competition. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some aspects of DCS, but if a real competitor came along .......WHO KNOWS?

yeah, i agree on that. On the GS server you can see very good what only better missiles could do. The j-11 with 4 PL-12 finally have some teeth to fight against Bluefor..and they get pushed to there base every time XD

[F-2]

5 minutes ago, Skyhammer said:

yeah, i agree on that. On the GS server you can see very good what only better missiles could do. The j-11 with 4 PL-12 finally have some teeth to fight against Bluefor..and they get pushed to there base every time XD

Apparently in real life they are starting to carry them on the centerline stations.

 

why not a AI J-11B? Pl-12 is in game and we have fairly detailed radar specs, and I have thrust curves for the AL-31f and WS-10a

[Skyhammer]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb F-2:

why not a AI J-11B?

we don't even have a proper J-11A where it should have 4 MFDs...and only have the intial Su27SK copy labeled as J-11A with Fox 3s so bad that people prefer to use the ERs instead of the 77

[F-2]

2 minutes ago, Skyhammer said:

we don't even have a proper J-11A where it should have 4 MFDs...and only have the intial Su27SK copy labeled as J-11A with Fox 3s so bad that people prefer to use the ERs instead of the 77

AI as in NPC

[F-2]

@FlankerFan35 Thanks for these image of J-11a with pl-12

[Skyhammer]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb F-2:

AI as in NPC

as AI a J-11B shure whould be nice

[Blackhawk NC]

Those are nice pics!

A J-11 with pl-12s would be a game changer for REDFOR

[Hotdognz]

Its because ED doesn't add anything to the gameplay in DCS, they leave that up to individuals to make the content for their game and best cobble missions together how they can from the assets provided by ED, its easier to go PVE for a lot of servers as at least they can include Redfor AI in those missions even though the AI is simple its still makes for a believable scenario, that's how our servers run, our main group of pilots has no interest in going Blue vs Blue in PVP, if we do a PVP we only use Redfor and Bluefor matched plane sets.

DCS is very much heading along the road towards being a systems simulator and it will be a dam good one at that for sure, as far as being a combat simulator goes it diminishes its self each time a Blufor aircraft is released, the last Redfore plane was the Jeff, we haven't had any new Redfor AI air or ground assets for a long time and with the amount of development time it takes just to get a AI model out (take the new B1 model which has been shown now for 2 years) it would take a long time for ED to get out new AI assets for DCS.

[FlankerFan35]

16 hours ago, Blackhawk NC said:

As a player that exclusively flies REDFOR aircraft, I have noticed that most MP servers do not include REDFOR aircraft and when they do, they place them on the map so it strongly discourages REDFOR pilot participation. This is a phenomenon that I truly do not understand. I search the list of available servers everyday and find it almost impossible to find a server that includes REDFOR aircraft assignments in their missions with a series of tasks that can lead to REDFOR victory. What is the attraction to BLUFOR PVE missions in MP?  You fly against a computer sim, not a real thinking person in the other cockpit. That just sounds like single player with friends. I guess that has an appeal but I don't truly understand it. Are we ever gonna see a server that offers both sides a chance to win while making strategy and tactics important components? A server that that doesn't require REDFOR  to fly 200 miles only to be killed by a one of a hundred BLUFOR manpads or find critical items are indestructible (all of this usually without AWACS coverage). Sadly, it seems to me that even with much better aircraft and armaments, BLUFOR mission designers feel they are at a disadvantage. They set up missions with lots of things for them to kill but with very little chance of coming up against a REDFOR that will actually fight back. With the exception of the SD-10 ( which has its performance parameters changed daily it seems) REDFOR doesn't even have a truly functional fox 3 missile (R-77s have less range that an R-73). Where are the mission designers that will set up a real mission that is fun and challenging for both sides to fly, that is persistent, and presents new challenges each time you log in? One that keeps red aircraft on red side and blue aircraft on blue side. Puts reasonable limits on weapons, like only 2 aim-54s. Gives both sides the chance to win, AND FORCES BOTH SIDES TO FIGHT AGAINST REAL OPPOSING PILOTS in most cases! DCS is becoming a PVE game. It might sell a lot of F-15E's but it is slowly killing a great air combat sim. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THIS WAY? Sorry for the rant!

Closest "balanced" server we have in Tempest Cold War limiting everyone to FOX-1s although BLUFOR gets 7Ms and REDFOR 27Rs. The only real FF competitive gen 4 "Red" remains the JF. That said, Deka says they'll update out JF with whatever PAF adds onto their block 1/2s should they update the fleet with block 3 tech, this includes such things as the HMD1/2 series (JHMCS counterpart), WS-13E engine when that comes online and perhaps the PL-10E (AIM-9X counterpart).

The only other possibly is Deka getting the missing info on the Su-30MKK or being allowed to do something like a J-10A once all 10As are retrofitted or a J-10B as there are only about 40 something in service. I highly doubt ED will do a FC3 style 27SM/J-11B however nice that would be and REDFOR countries like Russia/China are quite tight lipped. The more likely outcome is REDFOR getting pushed out of gen 4 and us flying more in Cold War scenarios. Will get far worse when F-15E comes fully online and Eurofighter arrives.

As an almost exclusively REDFOR pilot I say, start looking at/getting into Cold War 'cause that's our future with modules like J-8, MiG-23MLA, MiG-17F on the way and pray to Deka gods daily they get access to gen 4 stuff.

Edited July 10, 2023 by FlankerFan35

[MAXsenna]

14 hours ago, Blackhawk NC said:

ED doesn't care about REDFOR

You base this on what? Pretty sure ED would love to do everything if they had the DATA, time and an abundance of resources. ED strives for realism, and that's what drags quite a few of us here. 

14 hours ago, Blackhawk NC said:

It is a matter of time before a competitor come in to challenge DCS.

That we know. We also know who just got their IP back. But who knows when and if they will be up to ED's standards. 

Cheers! 

[okopanja]

13 hours ago, Blackhawk NC said:

Those are nice pics!

A J-11 with pl-12s would be a game changer for REDFOR

Head for GS server, enter j11a, and try it out. No modding needed with full IC.

Have fun.

[Blackhawk NC]

Which Growling sidewinder server?  The Urban Thunder Hardcore one? Maybe I'll drag the fellas in there tonight and try it out.

[FlankerFan35]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk NC said:

Which Growling sidewinder server?  The Urban Thunder Hardcore one? Maybe I'll drag the fellas in there tonight and try it out.

Open Conflict

[okopanja]

Correct: Open Conflict, I did not try Hardcore yet, flying for recreation at the moment

 

[mazex]

It would surprise me a lot if the complete lack of any high fidelity REDFOR modules is for real? ED is a Russian company (with a mailbox/account in a small Swiss town). Almost all the maps like Caucus, Syria etc. are the places where Russia has been fighting recently. So it would surprise me a LOT if there is no Russian military version with good high fidelity modules of Su-27/35s, Su-34s etc... What was the classic included map for Flanker 2.0, LOMAC etc? Crimea... Not any more in the version we are playing at least. And to train it's nice to have high fidelity models of F-15, F-16 and F/A-18s naturally.

Edited February 19, 2024 by mazex

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, mazex said:

It would surprise me a lot if the complete lack of any high fidelity REDFOR modules is for real?

 

No, not real, as there are the Mig-21 bis and the JF-17, I own both  

[Gunfreak]

7 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

No, not real, as there are the Mig-21 bis and the JF-17, I own both  

With MiG29, MiG23, and probably Su22 on the way. You just won't get any Russian (and  probably not Chinese) modern aircraft. Or modern upgrade of older aircraft.

[Rudel_chw]

20 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

You just won't get any Russian (and  probably not Chinese) modern aircraft.

 

That's fine for me, as I like Cold war aircraft much better than the modern flying computers, which are frankly kind of boring ... older aircraft like the Tomcat, the Viggen, and the MiG-21 are much more challenging and fun.

[Evoman]

I think the future will get better for REDFORE vs BLUFOR battles with the addition of the Mig-17, Mig-23 and Mig-29. In my opinion the Vietnam era could be one of the most ideal eras to have a good balanced forces once the Vietnam map comes.