I simply don't have time to mess with AI/ME. I just want to fly a mission!!!

[dmatsch]

let me give you some background:  I don't have a lot of free time to fly DCS.  Maybe a few hours on the weekend if I'm lucky.  I've got a job and family.

Here is a log of my typical DCS experiences, which pretty much sums up the situation EVERY time I get a few hours to fly.  DCS shouldn't be this difficult OTHER than learning to fly your chosen platform.

1. fire up DCS, find user-created mission that seems like the one you want to fly**.  **when I want to fly a strike, I don't want to be tasked with a CAP.  When I want to take out a building, I don't want a SEAD mission...
   1. ---or-- try to create a simple, coordinated mission with AI SEAD, CAP, and OPFOR response patterns etc... (this alone is an all-day task WITHOUT flying)
2. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc...
   1. the missions doesn't perform as expected for whatever reason (parking issues, static templates overlapping, AI taxi issues, AI crashing on takeoff, etc).  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
   2. the AI doesn't perform as expected (tasking issues, ignored orders, terrain following, etc).  Mission Editor, try to fix AI issues.  **most likely will include lua scripting.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...  Another 1-2 hours.
3. get the mission to a "workable" condition, start the sim, fly for an hour and ... go to step 2 again. More AI issues.  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
4. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc... on target and now have weapon issues.  CBUs not effective, static objects non-destructible, weapons won't perform as expected (module bugs), can't lock targets, AI ignoring orders and doing *whatever* they want...
5. Back in to ME to fix THOSE issues...another 1-2 hours.  Fix, debug, fly, ME,  Fix, debug, fly...

So far, I'm 3-4 hours into DCS --WITHOUT EVEN COMPLETING THE MISSION I DESIGNED OR GETTING TO FLY AT ALL.

*****

That's it.  3-4 hours.  My free time is gone for the week, I've barely flown for less than an hour and I've got nothing to show for it.  Let's try again next week after updates change *everything* and I have to re-learn *everything*.

*****

 

TLDR; -->

ED:  Fix your core bugs.  DCS stands for "Digital ***Combat*** Simulator.  What you all have created is (albeit the best and most wonderful in the business) a "Empty Sandbox Flight Simulator".  My advice to you is to focus on the "C" of DCS instead of releasing "early release" modules that will NEVER be completed (because you've already got my money (F16, F18, Normandy, etc)!!)

 

 

[silverdevil]

2 hours ago, dmatsch said:

let me give you some background:  I don't have a lot of free time to fly DCS.  Maybe a few hours on the weekend if I'm lucky.  I've got a job and family.

Here is a log of my typical DCS experiences, which pretty much sums up the situation EVERY time I get a few hours to fly.  DCS shouldn't be this difficult OTHER than learning to fly your chosen platform.

1. fire up DCS, find user-created mission that seems like the one you want to fly**.  **when I want to fly a strike, I don't want to be tasked with a CAP.  When I want to take out a building, I don't want a SEAD mission...
   1. ---or-- try to create a simple, coordinated mission with AI SEAD, CAP, and OPFOR response patterns etc... (this alone is an all-day task WITHOUT flying)
2. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc...
   1. the missions doesn't perform as expected for whatever reason (parking issues, static templates overlapping, AI taxi issues, AI crashing on takeoff, etc).  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
   2. the AI doesn't perform as expected (tasking issues, ignored orders, terrain following, etc).  Mission Editor, try to fix AI issues.  **most likely will include lua scripting.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...  Another 1-2 hours.
3. get the mission to a "workable" condition, start the sim, fly for an hour and ... go to step 2 again. More AI issues.  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
4. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc... on target and now have weapon issues.  CBUs not effective, static objects non-destructible, weapons won't perform as expected (module bugs), can't lock targets, AI ignoring orders and doing *whatever* they want...
5. Back in to ME to fix THOSE issues...another 1-2 hours.  Fix, debug, fly, ME,  Fix, debug, fly...

So far, I'm 3-4 hours into DCS --WITHOUT EVEN COMPLETING THE MISSION I DESIGNED OR GETTING TO FLY AT ALL.

*****

That's it.  3-4 hours.  My free time is gone for the week, I've barely flown for less than an hour and I've got nothing to show for it.  Let's try again next week after updates change *everything* and I have to re-learn *everything*.

*****

 

TLDR; -->

ED:  Fix your core bugs.  DCS stands for "Digital ***Combat*** Simulator.  What you all have created is (albeit the best and most wonderful in the business) a "Empty Sandbox Flight Simulator".  My advice to you is to focus on the "C" of DCS instead of releasing "early release" modules that will NEVER be completed (because you've already got my money (F16, F18, Normandy, etc)!!)

 

 

rant accepted /s

many of your points are parallel to me. i have been with DCS since 2014 (maybe earlier). i do not have a lot of time. when i do have time, i have to be selective of what to do. there are so many missions out there. depending on the plane of course. honestly (knock on wood), i have 0 tech glitches. i admit that not everyone can fiscally pay whatever for the best pc on the market. i did just this during covid. i was saving money by not schlepping to the office each day. and saving 90 minutes a day with the commute. 90 minutes is a lot. i just do what i can and forget about life for a little while.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, dmatsch said:

So far, I'm 3-4 hours into DCS --WITHOUT EVEN COMPLETING THE MISSION I DESIGNED OR GETTING TO FLY AT ALL.

 

This is a rant ... I completely understand the frustration, but ... why place it on the Bugs section? ... this doesn't seems like a bug report 

[SharpeXB]

If you have limited time don’t spend it messing around with the mission editor. There are plenty of included, instant action or missions you can generate with the quick mission creator. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, dmatsch said:

let me give you some background:  I don't have a lot of free time to fly DCS.  Maybe a few hours on the weekend if I'm lucky.  I've got a job and family.

Here is a log of my typical DCS experiences, which pretty much sums up the situation EVERY time I get a few hours to fly.  DCS shouldn't be this difficult OTHER than learning to fly your chosen platform.

1. fire up DCS, find user-created mission that seems like the one you want to fly**.  **when I want to fly a strike, I don't want to be tasked with a CAP.  When I want to take out a building, I don't want a SEAD mission...
   1. ---or-- try to create a simple, coordinated mission with AI SEAD, CAP, and OPFOR response patterns etc... (this alone is an all-day task WITHOUT flying)
2. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc...
   1. the missions doesn't perform as expected for whatever reason (parking issues, static templates overlapping, AI taxi issues, AI crashing on takeoff, etc).  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
   2. the AI doesn't perform as expected (tasking issues, ignored orders, terrain following, etc).  Mission Editor, try to fix AI issues.  **most likely will include lua scripting.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...  Another 1-2 hours.
3. get the mission to a "workable" condition, start the sim, fly for an hour and ... go to step 2 again. More AI issues.  Mission editor, try to fix mission.  1-2 hours.  Change, fly, debug, change, fly, debug...
4. Fly the mission:  10 minutes for startup, 10 minutes for taxi, an hour for marshall, etc... on target and now have weapon issues.  CBUs not effective, static objects non-destructible, weapons won't perform as expected (module bugs), can't lock targets, AI ignoring orders and doing *whatever* they want...
5. Back in to ME to fix THOSE issues...another 1-2 hours.  Fix, debug, fly, ME,  Fix, debug, fly...

So far, I'm 3-4 hours into DCS --WITHOUT EVEN COMPLETING THE MISSION I DESIGNED OR GETTING TO FLY AT ALL.

*****

That's it.  3-4 hours.  My free time is gone for the week, I've barely flown for less than an hour and I've got nothing to show for it.  Let's try again next week after updates change *everything* and I have to re-learn *everything*.

*****

 

TLDR; -->

ED:  Fix your core bugs.  DCS stands for "Digital ***Combat*** Simulator.  What you all have created is (albeit the best and most wonderful in the business) a "Empty Sandbox Flight Simulator".  My advice to you is to focus on the "C" of DCS instead of releasing "early release" modules that will NEVER be completed (because you've already got my money (F16, F18, Normandy, etc)!!)

 

 

I won't argue against your plea to fix bugs, but until then I hope you find the following advice useful:

 

Don't forget about autostart and time acceleration. Those should help cut out time, especially when mission testing. If you really want to burn through procedures you can use the plane jump function to instantly take a plane from cold to taxi ready (jump out of plane, the AI takes over, jump back in and it's started) or set your plane to a hot start or air start in the ME.

The ME has a load mission trigger. You can use this to break missions into parts. For example, Mission 1 can become:

Mission 1 - Takeoff

Mission 1 - Ingress

Mission 1 - Combat

Mission 1 - Landing

Effectively you can create a checkpoint system and skip sections of the mission when testing, or if you need to restart because of a bug.

 

Also consider either upfront or incremental mission building. By upfront I mean dedicate some amount of time to making missions and only making missions, then when you feel like you have enough go back and play them. This is still going to delay your play time, but I feel like if it's structured this way it's less frustrating.

Incremental mission design is all about doing everything in tiny pieces. With the DCS ME it only takes a few minutes to make a functioning mission if it's kept small. Instead of making totally new missions, you can go back and add more detail to existing missions. Hopefully this leads to less testing and more combat in the end.

[Slippa]

Reading this I started chuckling and was thinking ‘welcome to DCS’. 

Some of it isn’t so funny when trying to skip the given hurdles though so fair enough, I get it. There’s a ‘World’ in the title too and it’s being added to and fiddled with constantly. Well ok, maybe just for two weeks as a WIP but you know, it’s a birds nest at times. Maybe chop it up like Exorcet mentioned? I didn’t know that could be done either so cheers for that at least. Doesn’t sound like a bad idea.

Chances are you won’t want to delete that mission you’ve been working on. I bet it’s getting pretty good already but I think you’re making a valid point besides. For me it’s nice to know I’m not the only one pulling their hair out over some of it at times. The more realism we’re after or the more complicated the simulation, the ‘better’ it is, the longer we have to spend time on it. For me, that time and effort reaps a better reward when it goes right. There’s the choker though as if the tools aren’t reliable or some are, some aren’t, or some are ‘updated’ or just plain bananas we’re all bit knackered. All that time frustratingly wasted. Then we’re back again for another go…

Will keep my eye out for your mission though as I’m sure when it’s done it should be pretty well tested and ironed out.

then there’ll be an update lol, sorry.

Good luck with it. 

[draconus]

17 hours ago, dmatsch said:

I don't have a lot of free time to fly DCS.  Maybe a few hours on the weekend if I'm lucky.

So the MP is out - SP it is. Best bet is to take on some recent DLC campaign or the ones that are frequently updated. If you go for user-made missions, make sure they are recently updated or just confirmed working. There are also dynamic campaign type user-made missions/servers with all kind of slots and mission types - try it.

[Bucic]

I spent days doing takeoffs and landings at Senaki, F-5E. Tens of those. At one point I decided to follow one of the transporters to his destination up North (Sochi?). Thanks to the dynamic weather system I got into close-to-zero-visibility conditions and almost died! I had a blast! What an adventure!

Since you seem bent on combat I'd suggest digging through supplied Instant Action and intercept missions. For example, F-5E has that awesome simple AWACS hunt mission.  Check multiple modules you own. You can edit an instant action mission to set it up so that you fly your platform of choice. I recall I sepnt tens of hours playing "your airbase is under attack by ground troops" mission in Black Shark. So not only there was no messing around the bush, the mission was timed.

Then there's the mission builder.

Then there's the RTFM
 

[silverdevil]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:34 PM, Rudel_chw said:

why place it on the Bugs section?

bug "i need more free time, can you help?" /s

[Walshtimothy]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:31 AM, 4eyes said:

I understand.  I have the opposite problem with time. I have too much. My problem is age, and loss of cognitive abilities. Loss of short term memory. The ME has become very confusing for me. I didn't want to give up on DCS.  You say you have 60-90 minutes to fly?  Then do what I have done. By pass the ME.  I am now using DCS Retribution in the "offline single player" mode. DCS is fun for me again. 

well done sir , keep at it ... exercise the old grey matter in dcs can only help ... although me can trigger psych issues as discovered from recent personal experience lol . S!

[LucShep]

On 7/20/2023 at 7:44 PM, dmatsch said:

let me give you some background:  I don't have a lot of free time to fly DCS.  Maybe a few hours on the weekend if I'm lucky.  I've got a job and family.
(...)

Here is a log of my typical DCS experiences, which pretty much sums up the situation EVERY time I get a few hours to fly.  DCS shouldn't be this difficult OTHER than learning to fly your chosen platform.

You, me and so many others (I'd say a significant part of those flying single player?).

Let me introduce you to something that, although very far from perfect, can and will assist in making your own missions a lot, lot faster:
 

• DCS BRIEFING ROOM official website: https://akaagar.github.io/briefing-room-for-dcs/
  
  ED Forum thread:

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by LucShep

[Bucic]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:39 AM, LucShep said:

You, me and so many others (I'd say a significant part of those flying single player?).

Let me introduce you to something that, although very far from perfect, can and will assist in making your own missions a lot, lot faster:
 

• DCS BRIEFING ROOM official website: https://akaagar.github.io/briefing-room-for-dcs/
   

How does it compare to the built in Generator? Yesterday I tried it for the first time and was blown away! In 30 seconds I created a working, action packed CAS mission. Furball in the air right from the start, attack helicopters on both sides, air defense, moving ground forces, some artillery even.

https://youtu.be/AVhr1kzsFeA

Since my usual benchmark track broke after the last update I'm using the track above as my new one