Cant taxi straight, cant maintain straight run during takeoff

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Cant taxi straight, cant maintain straight run during takeoff . I don't know. I cant do it. I thought I had it at first, but I cannot. Doesn't happen for me. With no brakes and rudder center, the aircraft veers to one side or another and correcting by differential brakes just ground loops it, braking the tail wheel. Whatever the secret technique is. I don't have it and I don't know it.

This is true for me foe every tail tragger in DCS. Every one! I-16, P-51, and now Mosquito. I don't know why so I cant fix the issue, and YT videos don't help as simply saying 'rudder dance' does not tell what to do and when. For WWII types, I am hoping for tricycle gear types like P-38 or A-20G or P-39. 

Also the term maintain "Maniforl Pressure" or "Continue to pull inches" of manifold pressure, DONT tell what to do and when, aor why. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

This is an example. Getting ready to say eff this mod. It happens by itself, regardless what I do. I cannot keep this aircraft straight down the runway, and I don't know why.

GroundLoop_on TOt.trk

[Slippa]

You can and you will, just not yet. You can’t jump in tail-draggers and just press go. You have to practice, practice and practice. 

The Mossie takes time too and we’ve all slid them sideways trying to get off the ground, more than once. It can be done, you’ll do it with practice. If you look up Reflected Simulations you’ll find he’s made some useful tutorials for the Mossie. So has Tactical Pascale, Grim Reapers too I think? They all helped me get a grip on it but ultimately, you have to keep at it. Practice on a nice long runway, don’t try to load it too heavily with bombs and fuel, if at all at first. 
 

Persevere, they’re worth it. Good luck.

[Slippa]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

simply saying 'rudder dance' does not tell what to do and when.

Also the term maintain "Maniforl Pressure" or "Continue to pull inches" of manifold pressure, DONT tell what to do and when, aor why. 

By ‘dancing on the pedals’ or ‘rudder dance’ they mean you’ll have to be swapping left then right rudder inputs in quick succession. You’ll be using your instincts to correct the aircraft as the more you increase the throttle, the more it will want to veer off. Also, as you gain speed, your inputs should be less frantic. Double check you’re trimmed out and set for take off properly and lining up nicely helps. Practice and enjoy a few bbqs on the threshold, they’re going to happen.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

After a almost hundred, counted em, triies, I don't think its gonna happen. There is no instinct is simulated flight. Not for me anyway.

[razo+r]

26 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

After a almost hundred, counted em, triies, I don't think its gonna happen. There is no instinct is simulated flight. Not for me anyway.

Before you commence your takeoff roll, just roll a bit slowly forward and line up with the runway. Drive as straight as possible, this will align the tail wheel with the runway. Once you have done that, there is only minimal rudder input needed. 

I haven't watched the track yet, will do that later. But another important tip is, that you need to be proactive in correcting the aircraft. Most of the times you can see people waiting and watching the aircraft get more and more off center before they will do anything. Correct the aircraft before that happens. On the first signs of deviation, deflect the rudder and if needed, do a quick tap on the brakes. Then see what it does and correct as needed. 

[razo+r]

In your track, you can see the aircraft slowly going to the right and you deflect the rudder, which is good, but you didn't tap the brakes. The rudder is ineffective at these low speeds so only deflecting it does not do anything. Use the brakes at lower speeds.

And also do the other steps I mentioned above. Roll straight for a bit and be proactive with correcting. Correct it in the early, don't wait and watch it getting worse. The longer you wait the harder it gets.

[Holbeach]

You will get a dozen different answers to the T/O question. E.g. I never use brakes to keep straight.

This vid won't help you much, but it shows how easy it is, to keep straight, if you use rudder only.

 

 

 

 

..

Edited July 31, 2023 by Holbeach

[DmitriKozlowsky]

3 hours ago, Slippa said:

 enjoy a few bbqs on the threshold

I have no clue what this hyperbole means. A consistent problem for me in aviation training. Context absent instruction.

[Slippa]

What I meant is that you’ll have to accept a few mistakes, crashing and getting it wrong is going to happen while you practice. You’ll set the aircraft alight a few times, it’s ok to.

it’s difficult to explain easily. I didn’t just jump in after seeing a few videos and have it all pinned down, it took a while to get used to it and find a way. Each tail dragger has it’s own characteristics that all need adjusting to differently. There’s no definitive answer to it, each time will be a little different but you’ll find a way if you keep at it.

I can sometimes take off without having to use any brake, generally I’ll flick the brake with rudder input at the same time to straighten up if I need to. I don’t always have to though. I’ve emphasised that because of the differential braking.

Keep at it, you’ll get there.

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

After more then 120 attempts with same failed results, no improvement, and no clue, I'd say that whatever talents are needed to master taildraggers in DCS are absent in me. If rudder dancing requires feel, there is no feel in DCS trhough X56 and Thrusmaster pedals. Result is undercorrection or more frequently an overcorrection, resulting in ground loop fairly quickly. I've had zero good take offs, and thats with no crosswind. The book states that correction should be began before nose deviates 10 degrees from desired heading, and that the slower the aircraft the larger the correction. That rudder correction to left is followed by equal correction to right to neutralize rudder effect. That the as aircraft gains speed, rudder correction is reduced in a dampened sine wave. That flight control effectiveness is A-E-R . Aleron authority is highest, then elevator, the rudders. This is the basic book for taildragger takeoffs. Well reading that, and practicing it fails me in practice. Doesn't work.  In real world, book states that it takes 4 to 6 traning flights for student pilot to get feel of taildragger. If so, I'd wash out pretty quickly. I cant comment on real life, but in DCS there is no feel. Only visual.

[bones1014]

How are you advancing the throttle? Don't go full power right away. Slowly advance it while getting a sense of how the plane is moving. 

[Slippa]

Put the book down for a minute and get in the aircraft.

Try to see what others are doing during take off, listen to the engines, at how they’re bring throttled up. Everyone that posts here are trying to help you as most likely, they’ve all been where you are now and know the feeling.

It can be confusing reading different peoples take on how to get it sorted, remember everyone is trying to help you and you’ll get there eventually.

I’d get on to a large airfield. Have everything configured for take off, then taxi around, change speed and direction but not worry about taking off for a while. Try to manoeuvre around at a slow speed for taxi learning what you need to do to steer it. Line it up when you’re happy to and advance both throttles equally. Once rolling, I’m looking to get to almost full throttle (3,000rpm) in around two or three seconds and I’ll generally have some adjustments to be made with rudder inputs. I’d be concentrating on just going as quickly as I can and keeping it pointing where I want it to be, it’ll want to fly when you’re quick enough.

[Hiob]

This is a tough one. Like trying to talk somebody into learning how to ride a bicycle.

You are probably in a negative loop right now from failing and overthinking.

I don't have any advice that others didn't already give, so I would only suggest to stop thinking too much about it and just keep trying. Take a two day break from it when you feel anxiety crawling up. And then try again. Eventually it will click.

Make yourself a convenient mission, where you can jump right into the hot seat and start all over, if you haven't already. 

[BuzzLine]

1 hour ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

there is no feel in DCS trhough X56 and Thrusmaster pedals. Result is undercorrection or more frequently an overcorrection

I picked up a great tip some time ago : zoom out. 

The issue is that in 2D (and even a bit in VR), we lack the peripheral vision to gauge small movements. Zooming out (*really* out) looks awful and distorted but it will help anticipate those small movements.
In VR, like in real life, look far ahead.

[Holbeach]

Full load short runway.

High Halden, 4200', 111', Nil wind. 100 % fuel. 4 x 500 lb bombs. 22262 lb. (262 lb overload). Flap 15%, Trim nose down 2.0, Aileron 1 tick right, Rudder, 0.3 to 0.5 right. 3000 rpm. Throttle to 4 lb boost against brakes, release and immediately increase to max 18 lb boost. Keep straight with rudder. Lift off at 120 mph.

..

[Slippa]

What just struck me was that we’re having a discussion that could almost have been had around eighty years ago. People with experience operating the Mossie trying to help a ‘pilot under training’ get comfortable with it.

Maybe the OP could go on a server and find an instructor? I’m not sure how all that works really, just a thought. 
 

ETA - Holbeach just hit the nail on the head for ya, . Practice and enjoy.

oh, and make sure your assisted rudder is set to off, that catches you out too.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Slippa

[Skewgear]

1 hour ago, Holbeach said:

Full load short runway.

High Halden, 4200', 111', Nil wind. 100 % fuel. 4 x 500 lb bombs. 22262 lb. (262 lb overload). Flap 15%, Trim nose down 2.0, Aileron 1 tick right, Rudder, 0.3 to 0.5 right. 3000 rpm. Throttle to 4 lb boost against brakes, release and immediately increase to max 18 lb boost. Keep straight with rudder. Lift off at 120 mph.

..

There's some great advice in this thread and 4eyes' post about learning to taxi in a straight line at low speeds first is an excelent starting point.

The quoted post above is good but try it on a long runway (Channel map Manston is both wide and long, perfect for learning) with no load at first. I'd also suggest +7lbs boost on the brakes and then throttle up to 12lbs. No need to go to +18lbs unless you're taking off at max weight from a short runway - which is not an easy way to learn.

If you make your own practice mission, be sure to set the wind at no more than +5kts coming straight down the runway (meaning blowing towards your aircraft when you're lined up ready to go). Crosswinds will make it far harder so avoid those until you can take off successfully.

From personal experience, it takes a while to get the hang of the Mosquito and even now I'm nervous on formation takeoffs in case I swerve into the guy next to me. You will crash, it's part of learning the addon.

When advice says "tap the rudder" this means "press and then release straightaway". Tap dancing = press first one way and then the other. The Mosquito takes a long time to respond to rudder inputs on the ground while rolling so for the first 10 seconds or so of the takeoff roll, very lightly use the brakes at the same time as the rudder. You need the brakes bound to an axis as well for best effectiveness. I find holding the stick fully back for the first 10 seconds and then easing forward to lift the tail helps me.

Are you setting the trims before takeoff? 2 divisions nose down, 1.5 divisions right aileron, rudder to M of 'trim' on the dial. Flaps 15-20 degrees approx. (Lowered until needle on flap angle indicator is almost touching the 3 of the 30 degree mark).

Let us know how you get on.

[grafspee]

Maybe this help a little bit.

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

6 hours ago, grafspee said:

Maybe this help a little bit.

 

Useless!  Along with 100% of all other YT videos on subject.

[grafspee]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Useless!  Along with 100% of all other YT videos on subject.

At least i am showing my axis inputs, like throttle,rudder,aileron and elevator. Every take off is a bit different in mosquito, depends how well you align your tail wheel. I am correcting initial roll by applying more power on one engine. At the same time i use rudder to correct roll.  Mosquito has 2 engines but single tail that mean that prop wash isn't hitting tail this makes rudder input at initial roll almost ineffective, and this is reason why it is quite hard to take off this thing. Taking off with 5m/s head wind should improve controllability.

[DD_Fenrir]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Useless!  Along with 100% of all other YT videos on subject.

Hey! Wind your neck in chum.

People are taking time out of their day to try and help you. We understand your frustration but taking it out on those actively trying to help you is quickly gonna get you isolated.

Rule #1 is VERY MUCH in effect.

 

 

[Hiob]

@DmitriKozlowsky

What have you set up as your brake control? 

I would recommend to set up the pinky lever as brake control (even if it is not an axis - the mosquito has a pretty good fade in fade out implemented), when you have one on your stick. Resembling the real controls. 

Then, when your rudder input isn't effective on the initial take off run, simply tap the brake simultaniously (I mean short taps!). Since brake is always applied according to your rudder input, it will automaticly be on the right side and the right magnitude. 

It is really, really hard to do that with toe brakes! 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Hiob

[DmitriKozlowsky]

22 hours ago, Hiob said:

@DmitriKozlowsky

What have you set up as your brake control? 

I would recommend to set up the pinky lever as brake control (even if it is not an axis - the mosquito has a pretty good fade in fade out implemented), when you have one on your stick. Resembling the real controls. 

Then, when your rudder input isn't effective on the initial take off run, simply tap the brake simultaniously (I mean short taps!). Since brake is always applied according to your rudder input, it will automaticly be on the right side and the right magnitude. 

It is really, really hard to do that with toe brakes! 

 

An axis lever on my X56 stick. Mossie appears to taxi with differential braking. Brake lever controls pressure amount and rudder control differential pressure. It works fine. My issue is rudder dance. Using differential brake, evena tiny amount during roll ensures a ground loop. No amount of rudder dance can arrest that once it starts. 

I hate this whole thing. I find it impossible to learn, becouse there is no learning curve. I am not getting better. I don't think any taildragger mod is for me. I-16, P-51, that little sport plane mod. I cannot T/O, never mind land taildraggers in DCS. Tricycles, helos, VTOL Harrier, all work fine, and I am fairly proficient in them. But taildraggers are a curse. Not sure why aviation even invented those in first place. Aside from T/O and landing attitude at takeoff and 3 point landing, there is nothing good about such an unstable and hazardous arrangement.

[razo+r]

51 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

An axis lever on my X56 stick. Mossie appears to taxi with differential braking. Brake lever controls pressure amount and rudder control differential pressure. It works fine. My issue is rudder dance. Using differential brake, evena tiny amount during roll ensures a ground loop.

Not if you apply it properly. You can 100% use differential braking in your takeoff roll without doing ground loops.

51 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

No amount of rudder dance can arrest that once it starts. 

Remember, the effectivness of your rudder depends on your speed. If you are still slow and swing one way, your rudder may not be effective yet and you have to apply differential braking again. However, if you make sure your tailwheel is properly aligned, you have no need to use differential braking and the workload on your rudder will also be limited.