Ideas to improve mods

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Nipil said:

Honestly, though, ED does this too with almost (?) each OB, and sometimes they don't fix such things for years (the F-5 drivers seem to know that especially well, as does every mission creator). Although I would agree that using mods always adds it's risks, proportional to the mods' quality and quantity. I only use A-4 mod BTW, since it's ptobably only one I find both interesting and good enough.

I use more than the A-4. I've had to delete some mods becuse they don't work I've manually edited the LAu and I have the facebook group DCS mods 

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And again expecting players to all have the same mods installed in multiplayer is just an impossibility. No matter if there is some filter or manager. That doesn’t make mods any better to deal with in terms of game stability. 

It looks like logic almost caught up to you but you were faster. 

This is the reason I have a filter on the list. is the fact that you can't expect everyone to have the same mods installed (unless it is a squad that agreed to the same mods) you can however filter out mods you don't have which would make connecting to a server problematic. 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Because as a player I wouldn’t want to encounter these being more widely used online. The topic here seems to advocate ways to promote their use in multiplayer. 

As I stated before they already are used in multiplayer and as you don't want to encounter mods then on line then you shouldn't complain about the filter idea as the entire point is to hide servers that you mods and asset packs that you don't use. Then you will never see a mod ever again in your entire DCS life.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Better avoid the Skyraider then. 

 

Cuban ace is working on the Skyraider? Cool I  

Edited August 17, 2023 by upyr1

[Nipil]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

When I say junk I mean their potential to cause problems in the game. And the amount of time they suck up in managing. Good or bad they’re all the same in that regard. Or as better stated in the video they’re like a hot girl who’s going to give you a disease

Well, it's not too hard to unpack a zip into the "mods" folder in your DCS folder, or to delete a folder from there, even without a mod manager. Also, for instance, the A-4E-C hasn't been known to break anything up to this point (unlike official DCS updates lol). And it doesn't brake anything, it doesn't break often itself (compare, for example, AIM-54 breaking every few patches), it's realistic and does add a lot value to Cold War scenarios. It's really on par with official modules in almost every aspect, and does not demand much management on your side, just unzip it to a specified folder and have fun. I use A-4E-C as an example because it's probably the most popular and quality mod, widely considered the model DCS mod, and it might be the only one which has made it's way into mainstream servers (and it hasn't caused any trouble there!).

I am also suspucious towards mods by default, and I agree that most mods are of bad quality, are not supported well enough, and when they mess with vanilla game's files they tend to break stuff. All of this is especially true for an air combat sim, which has realism as a paramount value. But there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water. Especially since vanilla DCS breaks itself constantly even without modders.

It's also worth noting that there are games like ArmA series where half of community uses mods and they don't have much trouble with it.

[Nipil]

11 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Better avoid the Skyraider then. 

Mods is not just airframes. I use mods to enhance the game, like assets and fixes that lack in the game. Not to pretend to fly a certain modern airframe. 

 

This was just an example of mods which many, including myself, find to be of a quality which is not good enough. Of course I don't try to force my personal preferences on anyone.

Anyway, I don't think that the discussion regarding mods as such is going to lead us anywhere. And it distracts us from the original topic. Let's just agree to disagree on this.

Back to the topic, I would definetely support improved filters in the "user files" section of the website. It should not be a hard task, a few days of a junior web developer's work should ve enough.

When it comes to a mod manager, I don't think that reinventing the wheel is necessary, we already have a community-made app for this, and ED had better spent their effort elsewhere. Also, maybe it's possible to marry DCS to Nexus Mods and their mod manager, that might solve many problems related to uploading and updating mods, including large ones.

I've already touched upon filtering servers for mods conpatibility (depends on comolexity of implementation). And I still think that replacing models with "stand-ins" is not a good move, and it's not worth ED's effort, IMHO.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Nipil
Didn't want to create a separate post

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Nipil said:

Well, it's not too hard to unpack a zip into the "mods" folder in your DCS folder, or to delete a folder from there, even without a mod manager. Also, for instance, the A-4E-C hasn't been known to break anything up to this point (unlike official DCS updates lol). And it doesn't brake anything, it doesn't break often itself (compare, for example, AIM-54 breaking every few patches), it's realistic and does add a lot value to Cold War scenarios. It's really on par with official modules in almost every aspect, and does not demand much management on your side, just unzip it to a specified folder and have fun. I use A-4E-C as an example because it's probably the most popular and quality mod, widely considered the model DCS mod, and it might be the only one which has made it's way into mainstream servers (and it hasn't caused any trouble there!).

I am also suspucious towards mods by default, and I agree that most mods are of bad quality, are not supported well enough, and when they mess with vanilla game's files they tend to break stuff. All of this is especially true for an air combat sim, which has realism as a paramount value. But there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water. Especially since vanilla DCS breaks itself constantly even without modders.

It's also worth noting that there are games like ArmA series where half of community uses mods and they don't have much trouble with it.

The pain of managing these has nothing to do with simply unzipping a file. The pain is in just having to keep it current or dealing with updates breaking it etc. 

Any mod regardless of its quality still has these problems. They can cause stability issues, interfere with troubleshooting and require managing separate from the game. All this in a sim that’s already complicated and bug prone to begin with. I guess it all depends on your tolerance for this stuff but mine is zero, IMO no mod is worth it. Like most people, I’m someone with limited time for gaming and so I choose to spend that time actually playing the games rather than constantly screwing around with them. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Maverick87Shaka]

skipping for a moment the stability issue/bugs and the troubleshooting, that is part of the problem for sure, but the real stopper to me ( personal opinion ) is the lack of "integration" in DCS.

I really love the way how it's implemented on Arma3 (steam), where you can directly see, download/update, enable/disable mod just clicking on the server that is using or not a mod. 
The launcher that they have ( now! ) it's the "baseline" for a system that makes use of the mod "safe" and easy!

In fact, the server will include the "hash" of the exact mod release, and make the "integrity check" also for the mod, that actually is not happening on DCS.

That's why I'm not using MOD on public server! We use mods just times to time in our private server for squadron mission/fun fly

It's a pity since some mod really deserve a space also in public server, but cannot be done foregoing security. ( at least for me, as I said  )

Edited August 18, 2023 by Maverick87Shaka

[MAXsenna]

skipping for a moment the stability issue/bugs and the troubleshooting, that is part of the problem for sure, but the real stopper to me ( personal opinion ) is the lack of "integration" in DCS.

I really love the way how it's implemented on Arma3 (steam), where you can directly see, download/update, enable/disable mod just clicking on the server that is using or not a mod. 
The launcher that they have ( now! ) it's the "baseline" for a system that makes use of the mod "safe"

In fact, the server will include the "hash" of the exact mod release, and make the "integrity check" also for the mod, that actually is not happening on DCS.

That's why I'm not using MOD on public server! We'll use it just times to time in our private server for squadron mission/fun fly

It's a pity since some mod deserve rally a space also in public server, but cannot be done foregoing security. ( at least for me, as I said  )

This ^

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[dankmaster]

2 hours ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

It's a pity since some mod deserve rally a space also in public server, but cannot be done foregoing security.

My suggestion is to have one computer running Windows for games, mods, cat photos, etc...
Another computer running a modern OS like BSD/Linux if security is important.

I realize this setup isn't possible for everyone, but IMHO a proprietary OS and security are mutually exclusive.

[Maverick87Shaka]

17 minutes ago, dankmaster said:

My suggestion is to have one computer running Windows for games, mods, cat photos, etc...
Another computer running a modern OS like BSD/Linux if security is important.

I realize this setup isn't possible for everyone, but IMHO a proprietary OS and security are mutually exclusive.

Sorry, I was not so clear on my post......
When I talk to "security" in this context, I mean the "game integrity" itself, not the potential security issues on overall system  (that still an option btw).

My concerns expressed here to put a mod in a public server, is related to the actual ability to cheat/skip/bypass any integrity check. Unfortunately ( even if in a limited way ) also DCS community is affected by "annoying people", and server admins had to deal with it. 

 

[upyr1]

8 hours ago, Nipil said:

When it comes to a mod manager, I don't think that reinventing the wheel is necessary, we already have a community-made app for this, and ED had better spent their effort elsewhere. Also, maybe it's possible to marry DCS to Nexus Mods and their mod manager, that might solve many problems related to uploading and updating mods, including large ones

I honestly don't expect Eagle to spend massive amounts of resources on developing a mod manager. I would expect them to use Nexus or use an existing open source mod manager 

[MAXsenna]

3 hours ago, dankmaster said:

My suggestion is to have one computer running Windows for games, mods, cat photos, etc...
Another computer running a modern OS like BSD/Linux if security is important.

I realize this setup isn't possible for everyone, but IMHO a proprietary OS and security are mutually exclusive.

BLASFEMY! 

If you REALLY want security, you wanna run your favourite most productive OS, (whatever religion you subscribe to), in a VM. Definitely not straight in the hardware. 

Happy Friday to everyone! 

 

[Slippa]

4 hours ago, dankmaster said:

My suggestion is to have one computer running Windows for games, mods, cat photos, etc...
Another computer running a modern OS like BSD/Linux if security is important.

I realize this setup isn't possible for everyone, but IMHO a proprietary OS and security are mutually exclusive.

This was part of what led me to go the way I went. Part of it anyway. I bought a Mac, knowing that for Sim flying, DCS especially, it wasn’t the best way to go. I run bootcamp with Windows to run DCS and a few other bits and bobs, games, sims and software. Somehow, something convinced me to do the sensible stuff with the Mac and mess about with windows but I don’t really feel any more secure than if I’d have just bought a PC. If I try any mods they’re with the mod manager Ovgme. If DCS had it’s own I’d use that.

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

skipping for a moment the stability issue/bugs and the troubleshooting, that is part of the problem for sure, but the real stopper to me ( personal opinion ) is the lack of "integration" in DCS.

I really love the way how it's implemented on Arma3 (steam), where you can directly see, download/update, enable/disable mod just clicking on the server that is using or not a mod. 
The launcher that they have ( now! ) it's the "baseline" for a system that makes use of the mod "safe" and easy!

In fact, the server will include the "hash" of the exact mod release, and make the "integrity check" also for the mod, that actually is not happening on DCS.

 

 

I am not familiar with Arma3 but something like that would be awesome 

9 hours ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

That's why I'm not using MOD on public server! We use mods just times to time in our private server for squadron mission/fun fly

It's a pity since some mod really deserve a space also in public server, but cannot be done foregoing security. ( at least for me, as I said  )

 

 

[Silver_Dragon]

It seems that some people here keep forgetting several things:
- There is no official standard for Mods creation... in fact, "a certain" company here defending that they have thousands of mods in Ste**, (BIS / ARMA) is giving you not only the SDK, but the tested sources so that all Moders already have an official working base, plus the relevant documentation and the famous "Mod manager".
- Not only we don't have a standard on how to create a mod in DCS World, we don't have a standard for a 3D model, a script or the coding base of an add-on, "nothing" official, just a few posts in the Modding forum. Here the problem is that any content creator programs as he wants without following a guide in LUA, let alone programming in C++, etc for more advanced features. That's where the problem lies. And everyone designs in 3D anyway, following only a few tips in some old Docs and Videos. The only thing that is updated, is the 3DS Max Plugin.
- As much as the community keeps wanting to make content, it will keep on clashing with the DCS World base program, which is constantly updated, and this will keep on creating problems. No matter how many battles there are, without a standard, without the SDK and documentation, no matter how much "content management" is added, it's always going to be the same. Mod bugs will be more of a source of problems than a source of solutions.

And we already know ED's policy regarding the SDK.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

It seems that some people here keep forgetting several things:
- There is no official standard for Mods creation... in fact, "a certain" company here defending that they have thousands of mods in Ste**, (BIS / ARMA) is giving you not only the SDK, but the tested sources so that all Moders already have an official working base, plus the relevant documentation and the famous "Mod manager".
- Not only we don't have a standard on how to create a mod in DCS World, we don't have a standard for a 3D model, a script or the coding base of an add-on, "nothing" official, just a few posts in the Modding forum. Here the problem is that any content creator programs as he wants without following a guide in LUA, let alone programming in C++, etc for more advanced features. That's where the problem lies. And everyone designs in 3D anyway, following only a few tips in some old Docs and Videos. The only thing that is updated, is the 3DS Max Plugin.

I know ED has decided to limit access to the SDK, so I expect mods to remain a "use at your own risk" item. I do think there us a happy medium between what we have now and what other games have. 

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

- As much as the community keeps wanting to make content, it will keep on clashing with the DCS World base program, which is constantly updated, and this will keep on creating problems. No matter how many battles there are, without a standard, without the SDK and documentation, no matter how much "content management" is added, it's always going to be the same. Mod bugs will be more of a source of problems than a source of solutions.

This the reason that I want the filter, which could also be used to filter out official asset packs as well.

[Silver_Dragon]

9 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I know ED has decided to limit access to the SDK, so I expect mods to remain a "use at your own risk" item. I do think there us a happy medium between what we have now and what other games have. 

ED has not given any access to the SDK because we are not 3rd parties. Modding is not having "limited" access to those tools, not even the 3DS Max plug-in.

 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED has not given any access to the SDK because we are not 3rd parties. Modding is not having "limited" access to those tools, not even the 3DS Max plug-in.

 

That is exactly what I meant when I wrote ED  limits access to the SDK. If you read what I wrote you will see I never claimed they gave modders any access and the main thing I said is that you use mods at your own risk. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by upyr1

[upyr1]

On 8/16/2023 at 7:07 AM, draconus said:

@upyr1 Man, you started over 200 wishlist threads in a recent years. Do you even play? Seems like you just want to turn DCS into something it's never meant to be. Sometimes enough is enough.

I do play, I like to build missions and then get frustrated then post something in the forum then go back and play a single player misison

[draconus]

2 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I do play, I like to build missions and then get frustrated then post something in the forum then go back and play a single player misison

You already answered to my question. Fair enough.