Oh yeah, F-104 is coming! Which one we are going to have?

[bies]

What variant of F-104 this is going to be? Or maybe it's too early to ask?

I think some early USAF hot rod F-104A/C with pure performance from 1960s and Vietnam War would be neat. Maybe most popular multirole F-104G as well.

Considering quality, flight model, engine model and overall realism and attention to detail of your C-101 and Mirage F.1 and the number of variants you've included i'm confident Starfighter will be top notch as well.

Legendary Cold War american fighter, great choice and potential bestseller.

Edited August 29, 2023 by bies

[sirrah]

10 minutes ago, bies said:

What variant of F-104 this is going to be? Or maybe it's too early to ask?

I think some early USAF hot rod F-104A/C with pure performance from 1960s and Vietnam War would be neat. Maybe later variant F-104S as well or most popular multirole F-104G.

Considering quality and realism of your C-101 and Mirage F.1 and the number of variants you've included i'm confident Starfighter will be top notch as well.

 

I certainly hope  they go for (and let's be honest, it should be) the G 

 

Although, I'll probably end up purchasing any variant

[Silver_Dragon]

 

[Vampyre]

Most likely a F-104G as it served Spain for about two decades. It would be nice to have liveries for all the countries that used the G and also for weapons such as Kormoran and Bullpup missiles, various other bombs/CBU's (Rockeye, BL-755) and rockets (2.75 in FFAR, CRV-7) from other air forces. A two seat TF-104G would be nice as well if they could pull it off as would a RF-104G. I would not expect a Sparrow or Aspide shooter version such as the F-104S or ASA.

[dave76]

now i will be i very impatient for at least 2 years

[bies]

They mentioned early AN/ASG-14T1 radar and late J79-GE-19 engine.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The most likely option: The F-105G as the Spanish flew it and it saw quite a wide spread proliferation across the world.

The Patrician option: The F-104A.

The option I'd take because I know it'd make a lot of people salty with me: CF-104.

[jocko417]

Well I for one wouldn’t be salty with you, and I would think the Danes, Turks and Norwegians would give you a pass too

[TLTeo]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The option I'd take because I know it'd make a lot of people salty with me: CF-104.

To be fair, the CF-104 is fairly close to an F-104G.

[algherghezghez]

I’m pretty sure the CF-104 is just a licenced built G model by canadair.

The G is by far the most produced variant. Out of the 2500 104s built almost 1800 where some form of G (1100 G models and the rest CF or dual seater G), 250 S variants, 200 J, only 150 A and 80 C. It’s straightforward that we are first getting the G version (probably still with the old C2 seat as the Spanish had that) and later maybe a dual seater and hopefully the S variant for Italians and Turks.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

23 minutes ago, algherghezghez said:

I’m pretty sure the CF-104 is just a licenced built G model by canadair.

 

Pretty much. It was derived from the G, but it had some notable changes. The CF-104 was Canada's big punch as they were organized into reconnaissance and nuclear strike squadrons as opposed to interceptor squadrons. At the time, that job would have fallen to the CF-100 Canuck and CF-101 Voodoo.

Of note, are the initial omission of the gun in favor of more fuel storage and a NASARR R-24A in lieu of the F-15A-41B. The R-24 only had A2G capability at the start of the CF-104's life while the 104G's F-15A-41B had both air-to-ground and air-to-air capability. This was because the RCAF used its CF-104s as both recce and nuclear strike platforms. With changes to Canadian military and foreign policy in the late '60s, the CF-104s we reorganized into conventional attack squadrons. With that, they got their guns at the very least. Some sources I find state that the R-24A was upgraded to include an air-to-air mode, but I can't verify that. I'm pretty sure they never carried the AIM-9, but I'm almost certain they had the capacity.

Edited August 26, 2023 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[algherghezghez]

8 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Pretty much. It was derived from the G, but it had some notable changes. The CF-104 was Canada's big punch as they were organized into reconnaissance and nuclear strike squadrons as opposed to interceptor squadrons. At the time, that job would have fallen to the CF-100 Canuck and CF-101 Voodoo.

Of note, are the initial omission of the gun in favor of more fuel storage and a NASARR R-24A in lieu of the F-15A-41B. The R-24 only had A2G capability at the start of the CF-104's life while the 104G's F-15A-41B had both air-to-ground and air-to-air capability. This was because the RCAF used its CF-104s as both recce and nuclear strike platforms. With changes to Canadian military and foreign policy in the late '60s, the CF-104s we reorganized into conventional attack squadrons. With that, they got their guns at the very least. Some sources I find state that the R-24A was upgraded to include an air-to-air mode, but I can't verify that. I'm pretty sure they never carried the AIM-9, but I'm almost certain they had the capacity.

 

Thanks mate! You never finish learning

[Bremspropeller]

The CF-104 has a better cockpit layout with that fat abbajabba in the center, while the 104G was a bit more awkward.

CF

German 104G

Edited August 26, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[LordOrion]

I hoper for S/ASA-M: having MRM like Sparrow and/or Aspide might be a really good thing.

[303_Kermit]

1 hour ago, LordOrion said:

I hoper for S/ASA-M: having MRM like Sparrow and/or Aspide might be a really good thing.

Disagree. No F-104 without M61A1 Vulcan

[LordOrion]

55 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

Disagree. No F-104 without M61A1 Vulcan

Well, the absence of the cannon is indeed disappointing, but since the dogfight maneuverability of the Spillone ("long needle", the Italian nickname of the F-104) is not exactly the best, I do prefer to have some BVR capability.

In the AMI (Italian Air Force), the F-104S / ASA-M have been used in the interceptor role till 2003/4 following the "Get in range, Shoot and Run" doctrine, merge and VVR fight were never to be taken in consideration

[Ahogephilia]

I personally wish F-104S/ASA,

 

but maybe we'll get a G.... But I am not disappointed!

[Lyrode]

According to the news by ED, it features AN/ASG-14T1, J-79-GE-19. If that's true, the varient here will be F-104A from 319th FIS in the US.

I surely hope Aerges can bring us more 104 like the G and S.

[TLTeo]

The CF-104 also received a better RWR eventually:

You can actually see the blisters under the nose and on the side of the exhaust (this is where Kriegsmarine and Italian jets carried countermeasures too afaik) on the later jets:

[Bremspropeller]

Starting in the early 70s, german jets were converted to the J79-MTU-J1K engine, which manifests itself by the long afterburner nozzle. With that mod, the engines lost most of their howl.

Late Luftwaffe jets got ECM antennae:

The odd-coloured panel on the rear fuselage was a crash-safe data-recorder:

Marine jets had the ALE-40 CM dispensers, verysimilar, but placed slightly differently to the late canadian CFs:

Edited August 26, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[TLTeo]

Interesting, those antennae look Identical to the a2g F-104S ASA jets, which carried a jammer (the AN/ALQ-73):

The Dutch ones also got ECM gear but the antenna looked completely different:

[bies]

5 hours ago, LordOrion said:

Well, the absence of the cannon is indeed disappointing, but since the dogfight maneuverability of the Spillone ("long needle", the Italian nickname of the F-104) is not exactly the best, I do prefer to have some BVR capability.

BVR didn't exist back then. Even Sparrow was well within visual range except for poor visibility/night.

Gun was F-104 main weapon regardless of its turn rate, it was designed to perform high speed slashing attacks, like WW2 BnZ fighters with great kinematic performance, but reduced turn rate.

[TLTeo]

It's not even about range per se, being able to reliably take front-aspect shots (which the F-104S with the Sparrow/Aspide/AIM-9L could do better than any other F-104) is a huge advantage regardless of what an aircraft was designed for.

[Bremspropeller]

Let's not fall for semantics or shifting goalposts. "BVR" is mostly about front-quarter attacks and being able to destroy a target reliably in the weather or at night and only then a matter of range - especially when factoring in apparent target size, which might be *small* when talking a MiG-21 head on at 5NM.

 

 

[LordOrion]

4 hours ago, bies said:

BVR didn't exist back then. Even Sparrow was well within visual range except for poor visibility/night.

True, but the main reason is to be able to maximize the possibility of hitting the target: the less distance the missile has to cover, the more energy remains in case the target maneuvers to avoid it. The same thing is done today also with the AMRAAMs, although at far greater distances (AIM-7 has a nominal range of 40Km).

4 hours ago, bies said:

Gun was F-104 main weapon regardless of its turn rate, it was designed to perform high speed slashing attacks, like WW2 BnZ fighters with great kinematic performance, but reduced turn rate.

Main weapon against bombers, not fighters: you don't need supermaneuverability to stay behind a TU-95, and I don't think high speed slashing attacks works against manourvering Migs, unless you take them completely by surprise.