Transitioning to and from Hover for Dummies?

[The_Chugster]

So I am having real trouble with slow flight and hovering, when ever i try to slow down to hover I just climb and the chopper pitches up and down like crazy when i try to use the cyclic and torque pedals and the speed seems to jump back up again.

I theorize there are 3 possible reasons for this:

1) The Apache is a really hard bird to fly at slow speeds/hover and I just need to practice a bit more.

2) The Apache is easy to fly at slow speeds/hover and I am a complete, unskilled moron who needs to just practice for many, many hours

3) I am not a complete moron but I do need to make major adjustments to my controls as I am making things harder than they need to be.

But whatever the correct answer is I need some guides that really break it down for me so I can find out which of the above is correct

[cw4ogden]

You've got a lot going on aerodynamically when a helo transition from forward flight to a hover and vice versa.  Suggested reading would be effective translational lift and translating tendency to begin with.  

Right now you are reacting to forces you aren't aware of.  Once you know what's going on aerodynamically, you can anticipate, versus react to what's happening.

[cw4ogden]

9 minutes ago, The_Chugster said:

So I am having real trouble with slow flight and hovering, when ever i try to slow down to hover I just climb and the chopper pitches up and down like crazy when i try to use the cyclic and torque pedals and the speed seems to jump back up again.

I theorize there are 3 possible reasons for this:

1) The Apache is a really hard bird to fly at slow speeds/hover and I just need to practice a bit more.

2) The Apache is easy to fly at slow speeds/hover and I am a complete, unskilled moron who needs to just practice for many, many hours

3) I am not a complete moron but I do need to make major adjustments to my controls as I am making things harder than they need to be.

But whatever the correct answer is I need some guides that really break it down for me so I can find out which of the above is correct

Another very general suggestion, not Apache specific is to make sure you are flying with elbow support.  If your elbow is not supported you are using biceps, triceps and shoulder muscles to achieve fine motor movements.  It can be done, but when you fly with elbow support, (a kneeboard or just positioning your joystick differently) you change to forearms and finger muscles which are much more precise. 

[The_Chugster]

17 minutes ago, cw4ogden said:

Another very general suggestion, not Apache specific is to make sure you are flying with elbow support.  If your elbow is not supported you are using biceps, triceps and shoulder muscles to achieve fine motor movements.  It can be done, but when you fly with elbow support, (a kneeboard or just positioning your joystick differently) you change to forearms and finger muscles which are much more precise. 

Yeah I my elbows are supported.

As I said above I know i need to learn more but im not sure where to start exactly

[MAXsenna]

Lower the collective, watch the VSI and pull back the cyclic to stay level while you hold in or repeatedly press the trim button, or descent while doing the same thing. Use the torque pedals to keep straight.
I keep telling you this, but you really should have started with another chopper. Then the Apache would have been a walk in the park.


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[Hiob]

1 hour ago, The_Chugster said:

So I am having real trouble with slow flight and hovering, when ever i try to slow down to hover I just climb and the chopper pitches up and down like crazy when i try to use the cyclic and torque pedals and the speed seems to jump back up again.

I theorize there are 3 possible reasons for this:

1) The Apache is a really hard bird to fly at slow speeds/hover and I just need to practice a bit more.

2) The Apache is easy to fly at slow speeds/hover and I am a complete, unskilled moron who needs to just practice for many, many hours

3) I am not a complete moron but I do need to make major adjustments to my controls as I am making things harder than they need to be.

But whatever the correct answer is I need some guides that really break it down for me so I can find out which of the above is correct

Start early, do it slow. (Especially when going from cruise to hover).

[The_Chugster]

40 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I keep telling you this, but you really should have started with another chopper. Then the Apache would have been a walk in the park.
 

Well i do have the AH-6J and UH-1M mods or should I use a 2 week trial for one of the ED chopper modules?

Edited August 26, 2023 by The_Chugster

[MAXsenna]

Well i do have the AH-6J and UH-1M mods or should I use a 2 week trial for one of the ED chopper modules?

Wait, or buy now. It's worth it anyway.
No matter the Huey or Mi-8. They're different. Huey will in a way teach you faster, but the Mi-8 will make you better.
Excellent tutorials for the MI-8. Works with all modules though.

https://youtube.com/@vsTerminus?si=UccIEYuQA3TetvGd

The Gazelle is super fun with the new FM, while it's very squirrelly it will teach you to react quickly.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Floyd1212]

6 hours ago, The_Chugster said:

So I am having real trouble with slow flight and hovering, when ever i try to slow down to hover I just climb and the chopper pitches up and down like crazy when i try to use the cyclic and torque pedals and the speed seems to jump back up again.

Can you lift the helo off the ground and hover (without the hold modes) reliably?  I can't tell if you are having trouble hovering, or just the transition from a cruise to a hover.

What joystick are you using, and do you have any curves applied?

[The_Chugster]

10 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Can you lift the helo off the ground and hover (without the hold modes) reliably?  I can't tell if you are having trouble hovering, or just the transition from a cruise to a hover.

What joystick are you using, and do you have any curves applied?

Not regularly and I ust cant seem to do anything smoothly, and my gear is the Warthog HOTAS, my curves are around 25 for each (based on Grim Reapers control setup video)

[Floyd1212]

I was going to suggest the curves, but you’ve already got them. 

It may just be that more practice is needed. It sounds a little cliche, but you have to stay ahead of the corrections and keep them small. 

[The_Chugster]

4 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I was going to suggest the curves, but you’ve already got them. 

It may just be that more practice is needed. It sounds a little cliche, but you have to stay ahead of the corrections and keep them small. 

Yeah, you right...I never was great with choppers in older sims and games so its no surprise I'm struggling in a study level sim

[NeedzWD40]

Do you have an extension or a lighter spring for your stick? One constant I've noticed in hardware is that heavily sprung sticks like the Warthog aren't very conducive to fine inputs, particularly close to the center, making it real difficult to control modules that need a light touch.

[SharpeXB]

An upside to all this practice hovering is when you go do AAR again it will be easy!

[Picure]

I suggest not going overboard with keeping the aircraft level when slowing down. Keeping it within 5ft/m is acceptable for me. Also, keep your control indicators on so you know when your SAS kicks in so you are not fighting the aircraft for control. Another good way to keep your aircraft level during slowing is to use the en route hud mode with the path prediction indicator. Keep that on the horizon instead of looking at your VVI until you get to very slow speeds, then you can look at the VVI. Good luck! 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Picure

[docWilly]

Hey Chugster, the FM is pretty decent so most of the issues we experience come from lack of training or our struggle with the setup (trim options, saturation or curves). Did you check out Bradmick´s "flight related things" on youtube. A ton of useful information from someone who flew the RL Apache.
Concerning your "issue":

 

 

 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I have a 20cm extension installed so I cannot really support my elbow...

[MAXsenna]

I have a 20cm extension installed so I cannot really support my elbow...

You place the hight of your stick so your whole arm rests on your right thigh when you hold the grip.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Floyd1212]

Or, you put it on your desk with your hand way up in the air and fly it like a "chopper".  (I know, that was bad.)

[shagrat]

Am 26.8.2023 um 22:00 schrieb The_Chugster:

Yeah I my elbows are supported.

As I said above I know i need to learn more but im not sure where to start exactly

Small, deliberate movements. Slow, rather than fast. Put an Apache on an airport, with an empty ramp and space around  you. No weapons, 60% fuel. No enemies and a slight breeze of no more than 5kts.

Remember to hit the pedal brakes once to unlock the parking brake(!) and then pick up the helicopter into a hover. Try to accelerate forward slowly(!) and keep the altitude at 100-200ft. Speed up to 60-70kts and decelerate again to 20-30kts. Slow and deliberate movements of the stick. Practice this transition from hover/slow forward flight through translational lift and back to a hover again.

Add gentle turns and try to keep your altitude from oscillating. Slow and gentle, don't try to rush. If you get more and more comfortable with the coordination of cyclic, collective and pedal inputs, you will notice muscle memory building. Movement and coordination just happens and you will be able to pay more attention to things beside the instruments and your immediate surroundings. Don't worry if you have moments in between, where you feel like you are all over the place like in the beginning, that's totally normal. For me muscle memory usually "clicks" after a couple days to a week and a half of training every other day.

If you don't use an extension on the cyclic set curves so the center has more granular control. You rarely use full deflection on a helicopter. Curves are not ideal, but it helps with fine control you need to counter the small drift movements.

Things to keep in mind, the Apache is heavy, so despite being pretty agile and maneuverable it has mass and declaration/stopping takes time! If you want to stop into a hover, plan ahead. Rushing at tree top height with 130 kts  and trying to get into a hover behind a tree line some 1800m in front of you won't work. If you get close to a battle position or a cover you should have decelerated, already. At 40-60 kts it is way easier to slow to a hover, than 90-120 kts. 

Slow and deliberate.

[The_Chugster]

None of these videos are helping me slow down to a hover without leaping 200ft in the air.

They keep saying 'balance cyclic and collective' but to be honest that advice is useless to a novice

Edited August 29, 2023 by The_Chugster

[admiki]

35 minutes ago, The_Chugster said:

None of these videos are helping me slow down to a hover without leaping 200ft in the air.

They keep saying 'balance cyclic and collective' but to be honest that advice is useless to a novice

 

There is no other way. I know it sucks, but just keep practicing. First pull back on cyclic to start decelerating and keep that attitude (don't worry about balooning up) and then drop collective until you stop climbing. Keep practicing. With time, you will learn how much you need to pull back/drop collective. Muscle memory is a thing.

[The_Chugster]

4 minutes ago, admiki said:

There is no other way. I know it sucks, but just keep practicing. First pull back on cyclic to start decelerating and keep that attitude (don't worry about balooning up) and then drop collective until you stop climbing. Keep practicing. With time, you will learn how much you need to pull back/drop collective. Muscle memory is a thing.

Yeah I know, its just frustrating, most aspects of DCS are set procedures, click this then click that...set speed to this to do that but actually flying choppers are all on 'feel' and 'instinct'.

Edited August 29, 2023 by The_Chugster

[UncleStains]

I recall learning this and thinking it was impossible and I had made a huge mistake getting involved in cartoon helicopters. Here's what I did....think about it as a series of steps. As you practice the steps get smaller and it becomes a smooth curve. Practice with cruise symbology up so it's easier to reference pitch angle. I'd also recommend taking no weapons and full fuel. That's enough weight to steady twitchy movements without getting close to your out of ground effect hover limits.

To slow down, first pitch back to about +5 degrees. This makes your nose go up and you start gaining altitude. Counter that by lowering the collective. Hold that +5 degree attitude with the cyclic and use the collective to get your vertical speed back to zero. Once you're stable there, pitch back a little more to +7.5 degrees. Counter your now-increasing altitude with another reduction in collective.

Now it gets tricky. As your airspeed approaches the translational lift limit your vertical speed will start going negative. Now start pulling the collective back up to counter this sinking. Keep managing vertical speed with the collective while you use the cyclic to nose down back to +5 degrees. This +5 degrees is the Apache's hover attitude (it happens to be exactly the same as the Apache's attitude when sitting on the ground). Eventually you'll be sitting at zero airspeed and zero vertical speed.

Now while all of this is happening, you need to balance your collective movements with pedal movements. Pull the collective, left pedal....lower the collective...right pedal. Eventually it becomes automatic and you'll find yourself moving your feet in anticipation of those collective movements.

It's not easy, but with practice it's definitely possible. As virtual pilots, we don't get the feedback of feeling the horizontal and vertical acceleration. This means you really have to stay ahead and anticipate what each control movement is going to do to your attitude/altitude/heading/speed and make the necessary adjustments to the other controls to compensate. 

[cw4ogden]

1 hour ago, The_Chugster said:

None of these videos are helping me slow down to a hover without leaping 200ft in the air.

They keep saying 'balance cyclic and collective' but to be honest that advice is useless to a novice

 

Here: is the most dumbed down primer I can offer you in lieu of you doing your own homework:
As you transition from forward flight to a hover initially you need to dump the collective because the upflow from tilting your rotor disk into a decelerative attitude will make you climb if you don't Anticipate it and correct for it.  

As you transition from above ETL(effective translational lift) to below ETL that upflow transitions from an upflow driving your rotor system to an induced flow, i.e. down thru your rotor system which causes you to now need lots of collective as you transition to a hover, the most inefficient and most power demanding state of flight for a helo.

So initially as you slow down, drop the collective.  At around 30-35 knots start to bring it back in slowly to compensate for the inefficiency of hovering flight.  
There's a lot more going on aerodynamically, but based on your post this is the most immediate thing to wrap your head around.  Decelerating is causing you to NOT need power followed by a huge power demand as you drop below ETL.  The slower you make the deceleration process, the easier it is to control power.  

A VMC approach to a hover is one of the hardest basic tasks there is in helo flying.  

Seems to me like you want to go from novice to competent helo pilot, but you don't want to do the bookwork.  There are reasons the aircraft is doing what it is doing, that until you understand, you can only react to.  You need to be ahead of the aircraft, not behind it.  And until you know why it's doing what it's doing, you can only react.  Familiarize yourself with some basic rotary wing flight principles, specifically the numerous sources out there specifically on the topic of "transitioning to and from hovering flight".  You are complaining you can't easily do something that's very hard.  If you're just here for everyone to pull out their violin and play the helicopter flying is hard song, we get it.  


 

Edited August 29, 2023 by cw4ogden