Ongoing Supercarrier Issues - Some thoughts

[McKronenberg]

Hey, Kronenberg from vCarrier Air Wing 17 here. In this post I want to rant a little about the state of Supercarrier, about the changes that are coming, and give concrete suggestions on how to improve that module for us. 

To start off, here is a little bit about us as Carrier Air Wing 17. We have been around DCS since 2021 and nowadays we are an airwing with roughly 30 active members equally split between VF-103 flying the Tomcat and VFA-34 flying the Hornet. We try to simulate US Naval Aviation as realistically as possible in DCS and we strive to find a good balance between "milsim" while doing things that actually make sense in DCS. This means we're not super big on roleplaying and we will omit real life procedures if they do not make much sense. We often fly strike packages with 16 Aircraft and over 20 players. This means we will all load up into the mission, spawn aircraft on the carrier deck based upon our LSP (Launch Sequence Plan) and then, on event time, launch those aircraft. We simulate Cyclic Ops, meaning all event aircraft will recover together on the carrier deck after the Cycle has been completed. Another point before I start with my ranting: We understand we fill a niche in DCS, and that we are not the entire community (although there are other groups like us). I will talk about a lot of things that make sense for us and balance that with things that the rest of the community does. 

There are two things I'll talk about: 1. Ongoing bugs/Issues 2. Future features. 
So with 16 Aircraft that want to launch one after another will cause a huge amount of issues. First, we cannot even spawn 16 aircraft on the carrier at the same time reliably. While there might be enough spawn slots on the carrier, as soon as there are more than 4 aircraft spawned into the carrier we cannot reliably spawn in anymore. That means we need to re-spot the aircraft that are already spawned in. 

One of the bugs that we encounter a lot is when the catapults break in launch operations, or will no longer accept an aircraft. Also the JBDs can get stuck while extended. While recovering, the crew will return to the LA or catapults while other aircraft are in the system and on approach. This means if I taxi to CAT 2 to park I have to avoid the CAT1 or 2 JBD because the SC module will trigger the JBD.  However, I will say: the catapults are better and have not been breaking as much since the last time I ranted (see this video). When it works we also love the catapult crew. It's a nice feature to have and it's really cool for immersion. Which is why it would be nice to be able to control all this as an option or menu item.

Here you might say: "Okay guys, just spawn in start up and take off immediately - where is the big deal?" Well, that's not how carrier ops work IRL. We want to simulate proper launches and recoveries within a set amount of time (a cycle). It is our identity and seeing as it is literally how carriers have always operated IRL, we should be able to do it. We obviously realize that not all communities operate like that. But a good part of it wants to be able to simulate real life procedures. 

On to future features, and here is something that actually really scares us: The plane directors, specifically the new feature. They are obviously a really cool feature, but it is highly likely that they will not work for 16 planes. A lot of people bought SC thinking we can simulate realistic carrier operations. Instead we are getting “Super Carrier - The Animation”. If the Plane Directors are a feature we cannot turn off in the mission editor, or cannot control, we will not be able to use the Supercarrier module anymore. We want to be on CVN-73 not the Stennis and benefit from what works. Otherwise, our choices are to uninstall the Supercarrier in the wing or use the Forrestal and that would be awful. 

Here are the features we actually want in the Supercarrier. First, please give us custom spawn slots/positions (like takeoff from ground on an Airfield). This would solve a lot of issues we have with spawning in. We could put all our Tomcats at the stern of the boat, all the hornets in the Sixpack, no respotting needed. We just spawn and launch on time. 

Then you might say: "hey our AI routing would not work with that" - and sure that’s true, but the solution is make it an option in the Mission editor so that we can choose. We do not use any AI at all for our missions. Please give us the option to have custom spawn slots, and the people that do not want to have that, just do not tick the option in the ME. 

The next thing goes hand in hand with the spawn slots: give us an overall "Manual Mode" for the carrier. We have human controllers and LSOs every time we fly and we do not need the AI comms at all. It is beyond frustrating not being able to turn on the deck lights on without calling into the aircraft carrier with the AI comms. Or when the AI starts to talk after people bolter and then anyone else just gets talked over. In general the AI comms are just not useful to us, because the AI just talks on top of us. 

Basically, a manual mode for the SC features would be best. Custom spawn slots/positions (like takeoff from ground on an Airfield) and give us the ability to turn off the plane directors. This way groups like us can choose to work the Supercarrier on our own and without too much interference. Don’t get me wrong, we love the module, but I just want to put into perspective what is actually important. Primarily, we are just requesting features to be handled by ourselves so that we can choose to use the module in a way that makes sense for realism-focused groups. Overall we are just frustrated with some of the features that we have and that have been promised. And looking forward it does not seem like any of these issues are going to be addressed. Thanks for your work ED!

TLDR - Here is what we need:
Reliable Aircraft Spawn Slots: The ability to reliably spawn 16 aircraft on the carrier at the same time for realistic launches and recoveries.
Custom Spawn Slots/Positions: Provide custom spawn slots/positions on the carrier deck, similar to airfield ground starts, to facilitate smoother operations without the need for respotting.
Manual Mode for the Carrier: Introduce a manual mode for the Supercarrier, allowing human controllers and Landing Signal Officers (LSOs) to manage carrier operations without AI interference. 
Option to Turn Off Plane Directors: Allow the option to turn off the Plane Directors feature, which might not be practical for use with larger groups of aircraft, such as 16-plane operations.
Fix Catapult and JBD Issues: Address bugs related to catapults breaking during launch operations and issues with the Jet Blast Deflectors (JBDs) getting stuck while extended. 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by McKronenberg

[TonyG]

Hear hear.  This has been a painful PAY module to love.  It hurts me more than my highschool girlfriend did. 

[Tactical Defeat]

20 minutes ago, TonyG said:

Hear hear.  This has been a painful PAY module to love.  It hurts me more than my highschool girlfriend did. 

Also, give us the pure plat cam view back. I want plat cam view 24/7 on my discord. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tactical Defeat

[Aekay]

I believe they could add a new role to the SC, with Pushbacks (trucks that can carry aircraft through the deck). This would give better organization of the aircraft on the deck, IMO

[WarthogOsl]

And for the love of God, fix the F-14A launch crew animations!

[Predator-78]

I think your requests are more than right, especially because you try to simulate the use of such an important module. Unfortunately, like many other modules, development is very slow and I am convinced that our requests will not be met. However, it's about time the ED listened to what users are asking for, it would be great.

[Steel Jaw]

I would certainly ignore anyone that suggests hot jet starts as a workaround. 

Also, when are chocks going to be replaced with chains?

[WarthogOsl]

1 hour ago, Steel Jaw said:

Also, when are chocks going to be replaced with chains?

Shouldn't they have both?  I've definitely seen pics of chocks being used on carriers.

[NineLine]

7 hours ago, McKronenberg said:

Hey, Kronenberg from vCarrier Air Wing 17 here. In this post I want to rant a little about the state of Supercarrier, about the changes that are coming, and give concrete suggestions on how to improve that module for us. 

To start off, here is a little bit about us as Carrier Air Wing 17. We have been around DCS since 2021 and nowadays we are an airwing with roughly 30 active members equally split between VF-103 flying the Tomcat and VFA-34 flying the Hornet. We try to simulate US Naval Aviation as realistically as possible in DCS and we strive to find a good balance between "milsim" while doing things that actually make sense in DCS. This means we're not super big on roleplaying and we will omit real life procedures if they do not make much sense. We often fly strike packages with 16 Aircraft and over 20 players. This means we will all load up into the mission, spawn aircraft on the carrier deck based upon our LSP (Launch Sequence Plan) and then, on event time, launch those aircraft. We simulate Cyclic Ops, meaning all event aircraft will recover together on the carrier deck after the Cycle has been completed. Another point before I start with my ranting: We understand we fill a niche in DCS, and that we are not the entire community (although there are other groups like us). I will talk about a lot of things that make sense for us and balance that with things that the rest of the community does. 

There are two things I'll talk about: 1. Ongoing bugs/Issues 2. Future features. 
So with 16 Aircraft that want to launch one after another will cause a huge amount of issues. First, we cannot even spawn 16 aircraft on the carrier at the same time reliably. While there might be enough spawn slots on the carrier, as soon as there are more than 4 aircraft spawned into the carrier we cannot reliably spawn in anymore. That means we need to re-spot the aircraft that are already spawned in. 

One of the bugs that we encounter a lot is when the catapults break in launch operations, or will no longer accept an aircraft. Also the JBDs can get stuck while extended. While recovering, the crew will return to the LA or catapults while other aircraft are in the system and on approach. This means if I taxi to CAT 2 to park I have to avoid the CAT1 or 2 JBD because the SC module will trigger the JBD.  However, I will say: the catapults are better and have not been breaking as much since the last time I ranted (see this video). When it works we also love the catapult crew. It's a nice feature to have and it's really cool for immersion. Which is why it would be nice to be able to control all this as an option or menu item.

Here you might say: "Okay guys, just spawn in start up and take off immediately - where is the big deal?" Well, that's not how carrier ops work IRL. We want to simulate proper launches and recoveries within a set amount of time (a cycle). It is our identity and seeing as it is literally how carriers have always operated IRL, we should be able to do it. We obviously realize that not all communities operate like that. But a good part of it wants to be able to simulate real life procedures. 

On to future features, and here is something that actually really scares us: The plane directors, specifically the new feature. They are obviously a really cool feature, but it is highly likely that they will not work for 16 planes. A lot of people bought SC thinking we can simulate realistic carrier operations. Instead we are getting “Super Carrier - The Animation”. If the Plane Directors are a feature we cannot turn off in the mission editor, or cannot control, we will not be able to use the Supercarrier module anymore. We want to be on CVN-73 not the Stennis and benefit from what works. Otherwise, our choices are to uninstall the Supercarrier in the wing or use the Forrestal and that would be awful. 

Here are the features we actually want in the Supercarrier. First, please give us custom spawn slots/positions (like takeoff from ground on an Airfield). This would solve a lot of issues we have with spawning in. We could put all our Tomcats at the stern of the boat, all the hornets in the Sixpack, no respotting needed. We just spawn and launch on time. 

Then you might say: "hey our AI routing would not work with that" - and sure that’s true, but the solution is make it an option in the Mission editor so that we can choose. We do not use any AI at all for our missions. Please give us the option to have custom spawn slots, and the people that do not want to have that, just do not tick the option in the ME. 

The next thing goes hand in hand with the spawn slots: give us an overall "Manual Mode" for the carrier. We have human controllers and LSOs every time we fly and we do not need the AI comms at all. It is beyond frustrating not being able to turn on the deck lights on without calling into the aircraft carrier with the AI comms. Or when the AI starts to talk after people bolter and then anyone else just gets talked over. In general the AI comms are just not useful to us, because the AI just talks on top of us. 

Basically, a manual mode for the SC features would be best. Custom spawn slots/positions (like takeoff from ground on an Airfield) and give us the ability to turn off the plane directors. This way groups like us can choose to work the Supercarrier on our own and without too much interference. Don’t get me wrong, we love the module, but I just want to put into perspective what is actually important. Primarily, we are just requesting features to be handled by ourselves so that we can choose to use the module in a way that makes sense for realism-focused groups. Overall we are just frustrated with some of the features that we have and that have been promised. And looking forward it does not seem like any of these issues are going to be addressed. Thanks for your work ED!

TLDR - Here is what we need:
Reliable Aircraft Spawn Slots: The ability to reliably spawn 16 aircraft on the carrier at the same time for realistic launches and recoveries.
Custom Spawn Slots/Positions: Provide custom spawn slots/positions on the carrier deck, similar to airfield ground starts, to facilitate smoother operations without the need for respotting.
Manual Mode for the Carrier: Introduce a manual mode for the Supercarrier, allowing human controllers and Landing Signal Officers (LSOs) to manage carrier operations without AI interference. 
Option to Turn Off Plane Directors: Allow the option to turn off the Plane Directors feature, which might not be practical for use with larger groups of aircraft, such as 16-plane operations.
Fix Catapult and JBD Issues: Address bugs related to catapults breaking during launch operations and issues with the Jet Blast Deflectors (JBDs) getting stuck while extended. 

 

 

Please wait till you see the new features before deciding they will not work for you, they will be tested in  large mp sessions for sure.

For bugs, if not reported yet, please report with associated tracks and info and we will do our best to get these resolved 

For feature requests please do detailed requests in the wish list section here, please one topic per thread, we love that you guys are trying to do realistic comms so please give me detailed reports to pass on to the team. 

Thanks

[EntropySG]

We have both carrier sqds and non carrier sqds within the wing (132nd Virtual Wing), we had 10 hornets and 2 tomcats on the carrier on last sunday's comat event. 

We do our best to simulate carrier ops as IRL, with zip lip procedures, pre-brief launch and recovery cycles and all that. As the original poster wrote, simply respawning etc won't work for us as we try to immerse ourselves as real as it gets. 

now, many of those carrier-based flights had tight integration with land-based sqds with regards to time on station, and time on target. That matters a lot for our operations (opening of SEAD windows against IADS networks etc, CAP/SWEEP being on station before the A-G flights arrive etc etc)

No matter how much our individual flight-leads plan their sorties (and a lot of the playtime goes into planning, which is fun!), but no matter how much we plan and practice:

 

A singel stuck jetblast door ruins the timing, and more importantly, as its an obvious bug, ruins the immersion. It happened on several events now.

 

Please, give some more love to the supercarrier module, I realize such bugs or many of them only happen in multiplayer, but maybe a simple code could be impleneted that checks when a JBD remains open for xxx amount of seconds respawn it or something. 

Ofc dear Nineline, I can understand that you guys need trackfiles and bugreports, and I will try to grab it from our server for that event, but in either case, those stuck JBDs are something that can be very disruptive for us. Not complaining, just hoping that those could be adressed. 

 

many thanks!

Edited September 19, 2023 by EntropySG

[r_vandenbroek]

Hi there, Rodge here from CVW-66. We are a milsim (or as close as possible with DCS) group and have 2 squadrons with about 30 members, comparable to CVW-17 as it seems. I'd like to chime in and confirm these issues. We love the idea of the SC but in practise, it's quite the challenge. We've had a lot of frustration with it and have to follow strict, non-immersive rules not to screw with things like launching. We share the same wishes as posted above.

The passion and support is here, please repay it by fixing the problems  Thanks and good luck.

[sLYFa]

I second all of the above, especially the current way the SC handles spawning makes launching large events (events in the sense of cyclic carrier ops) with 10+ aircraft difficult. The option to freely place client aircraft on the deck would go a very long way for the MP community. I do feel however that it is appropriate to cut some slack ED. Prior to SC, it was practically impossible to launch more than 2 aircraft in MP as the desync was so bad, even on high end servers with low ping, that on deck collisions due to warping were inevitable. With the new net-code that came with SC, this was largely fixed.

As for the JBD bug, there is a workaround:

Create a four-ship AI flight taking off from the catapults ('take off from runway option')and make them spawn through a trigger. Then, despawn them (either with another trigger or after a set time)and the stuck JBDs should go down.

[Nealius]

I would add in a request speedier deck crew, what we had before the Halloween skeleton crew. At the moment it takes ~15 minutes to launch 4~6 aircraft. 

[Tomcat388th]

With SC sometimes I feel like I bought a used car from dealership that the trunk keep popping open while driving. Take it back to the dealership and they say well it was  closed when you pulled in.  If it happens again call this number they'll get back to you in 2 weeks.  My only concern is if we finally get the full deck crew that it's going to tank performance for those of us on mid range rigs especially in VR

J

[BarTzi]

On 9/18/2023 at 6:33 AM, NineLine said:

Please wait till you see the new features before deciding they will not work for you, they will be tested in  large mp sessions for sure.

For bugs, if not reported yet, please report with associated tracks and info and we will do our best to get these resolved 

For feature requests please do detailed requests in the wish list section here, please one topic per thread, we love that you guys are trying to do realistic comms so please give me detailed reports to pass on to the team. 

Thanks

ED has done nothing to support these claims. This module seems very SP-oriented (ATC alone should prove this point). How many virtual squadrons are testing your upcoming SC changes?

Edited September 22, 2023 by BarTzi

[ruxtmp]

I'm struggling to remain patient with this module. They keep saying things are in the works, don't really care about the ready rooms. The additional yellow shirts and plane captains will be nice eye candy. It really feels like this module is not a priority or is more effort than it's worth now that it's out. Still an improvement over the free carrier but I struggle to see the non-sale price of $49.99. Its only worth it when it is half off at this time. 

[IndyNavy]

@NineLine Indy here from VNAO CVW-7 (creators of the T-45C).

We use the SC religiously everyday and are on edge for the same reasons @McKronenberg listed with this upcoming update. 

Our main concerns: 

• Deck Crew Logic making our Carrier Quals more difficult to conduct (Day/Night)
• "Hold Position" bug
• JBDs getting stuck
• Not having access to Pri-Fly
• Colour PLATCAM

Nice to haves: 

• Player Controlled Weapons (e.g. Phalanx CIWS)
• Ability to walk around the entire ship without ejecting from the aircraft
• Ability to use Elevators
• Pushback tug
• Ready Room w/live TV's and radios
• Greenie Boards

Eager to see the great work the team has done @NineLine, with bated breath. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by IndyNavy

[Nealius]

3 hours ago, IndyNavy said:

Ability to walk around the entire ship without ejecting from the aircraft

While you can't go all the way inside stuff, you can freely walk about the deck (and squeeze into Vulture's Row) with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F9, using the AWSD keys to move about.

[IndyNavy]

4 minutes ago, Nealius said:

While you can't go all the way inside stuff, you can freely walk about the deck (and squeeze into Vulture's Row) with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F9, using the AWSD keys to move about.

Oh yes after every update I edit View.lua:

CameraToUnitModelCollision = true

For access to the PriFly and other parts of the boat for simulating AirBoss/MiniBoss. Having this built in would be a great QOL update. 

[Nealius]

I have that line set to false on my client build, but Dedicated Servers lack the view.lua file so whenever I'm online (even my own server) the model collision is still on

[Tomcat388th]

The trunk popped open last night during our training night but this time it was cat 1 not 2

[Bankler]

Representing Master Arms DCS community. 

I can verify these issues. We are typically around 10-14 client Hornets on a missions. No AI planes on the carrier. Almost every single time, there's an issue with the ground crew not reacting when someone approaches the catapult, and the "Request launch" command does nothing. It's sometimes resolved when another jet that is already hooked up takes off. Example: Cat 3 doesn't react. Aircraft on Cat 1 takes off, and suddenly Cat 3 dudes start waving you forward. 

As it appears in mp with lots of players, it requires lots of organization to record a trk, that is also small enough. Also, I haven't found an exact pattern when it happens. However, it's so easy to reproduce, that you should easily be able to do it internally, as long as you have around 10+ players available. Just spawn everybody, cold start, decide on a time when to start taxiing and take off, use various cats, and see what happens.

If you already know what you need, that's awesome. But if a trk would be of actual use, I could try to organize a session and record it. If that's the case, do you want the server or a client trk file?

@NineLine

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

please add a track replay as short as possible showing the issues. We will take a look. 

What we do know is some scripted servers can create problems for the supercarrier, and also blocking cats or routes to and from the cats. 

Once we have the plane directors ready it should help as you will need to follow the directors to the allotted cat for launch, and for parking. 

thank you 

[BarTzi]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

please add a track replay as short as possible showing the issues. We will take a look. 

What we do know is some scripted servers can create problems for the supercarrier, and also blocking cats or routes to and from the cats. 

Once we have the plane directors ready it should help as you will need to follow the directors to the allotted cat for launch, and for parking. 

thank you 

I don't think plane directors will solve this, since plane directors rely on this faulty logic that's causing issues for players since launch. Also, dealing with blocked cats and static objects should be within the scope of the features of the base module. 

Edited Monday at 01:54 PM by BarTzi

[BIGNEWY]

Our manual has a section about statics placement and the importance of keeping routes clear for the AI logic to work. Giving the AI the ideal scenario for deciding routes and which cats to use is the best option currently.