DLSS & VR

[TZeer]

@Qcumber

That's why you see more upside when using QVFR/DLSS whatever. @diego999 already using his CPU more. He's also rocking a 3060ti vs your 4070. 

You have way more headroom both in the CPU and the GPU department.

Edited October 22, 2023 by TZeer

[Grodin]

With Reverb G2 i find DLSS unusable even with "Quality" preset, cockpits go so blurry i can't read labels, can't read F16 MFD texts and all fast moving things ghost horribly. Increasing pixel density helps for the clarity but whats the point because then i lose all the performance i gained to begin with.

[oakdown]

3 minutes ago, Grodin said:

With Reverb G2 i find DLSS unusable even with "Quality" preset, cockpits go so blurry i can't read labels, can't read F16 MFD texts and all fast moving things ghost horribly. Increasing pixel density helps for the clarity but whats the point because then i lose all the performance i gained to begin with.

Grodin, I also run a reverb g2, on a 3090, 13700kf, w/64gb ddr5.  I do not have your experience at all running dlss, quality preset, dlaa, sharpening at 0.55, pd 1.0 in sim. I disabled the toolkit, but run the openxr tools at 140 percent with motion repro, and prefer frames.  I feel I get very little ghosting, and the sim has otherwise never ran better for me. I've mostly been playing the f16. But have done outings in the a10c2 and apache as well. 

 

[Qcumber]

25 minutes ago, TZeer said:

@Qcumber

That's why you see more upside when using QVFR/DLSS whatever. @diego999 already using his CPU more. He's also rocking a 3060ti vs your 4070. 

You have way more headroom both in the CPU and the GPU department.

 

Of course. I should have looked at diego999’s signature. It will be interesting to see how different setups compare with 2.9. I wonder if the mid range rigs are the ones which will see the most benefit from QVFR and DLSS. 

Edit: however, a Q2 is less demanding than a P4. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Qcumber

[Stonkernz]

4 minutes ago, oakdown said:

Grodin, I also run a reverb g2, on a 3090, 13700kf, w/64gb ddr5.  I do not have your experience at all running dlss, quality preset, dlaa, sharpening at 0.55, pd 1.0 in sim. I disabled the toolkit, but run the openxr tools at 140 percent with motion repro, and prefer frames.  I feel I get very little ghosting, and the sim has otherwise never ran better for me. I've mostly been playing the f16. But have done outings in the a10c2 and apache as well. 

 

Hi, are you running at 90 or 60Hz?

Also running a G2 on a 3090, but 64DDR 4 on i912700 at 150%. It's just about there, but still tweaking a bit...

 

[oakdown]

2 minutes ago, Stonkernz said:

Hi, are you running at 90 or 60Hz?

Also running a G2 on a 3090, but 64DDR 4 on i912700 at 150%. It's just about there, but still tweaking a bit...

 

I run at 90hz

[javelina1]

1 hour ago, oakdown said:

Grodin, I also run a reverb g2, on a 3090, 13700kf, w/64gb ddr5.  I do not have your experience at all running dlss, quality preset, dlaa, sharpening at 0.55, pd 1.0 in sim. I disabled the toolkit, but run the openxr tools at 140 percent with motion repro, and prefer frames.  I feel I get very little ghosting, and the sim has otherwise never ran better for me. I've mostly been playing the f16. But have done outings in the a10c2 and apache as well. 

 

I'm also running with a G2.  with a 13900K and 4090, 64gb DDR5 and 4x NVMe's.  Using DLSS as well.  VR has never run as well as it is now.  Incredibile

[Grodin]

2 hours ago, oakdown said:

Grodin, I also run a reverb g2, on a 3090, 13700kf, w/64gb ddr5.  I do not have your experience at all running dlss, quality preset, dlaa, sharpening at 0.55, pd 1.0 in sim. I disabled the toolkit, but run the openxr tools at 140 percent with motion repro, and prefer frames.  I feel I get very little ghosting, and the sim has otherwise never ran better for me. I've mostly been playing the f16. But have done outings in the a10c2 and apache as well. 

 

Did disabling the toolkit give any benefits? Before 2.9 i never got reprojection working well, lots of ghosting and apache rotor causing issues etc - is motion reprojection better with dlss?

[oakdown]

Regarding the toolkit, well i disabled it because I wasn't sure where my settings were at with it, and didn't want any conflicting settings, ie: back to somewhat barebones and build on up.  Next step will be to slowly reintroduce some of the toolkit settings to see if it's worth utilizing or not. 

 

Regarding motion reprojecting, I find the artifacting to be pretty minimal especially with the f16 maybe a little wavering around the eyebrows, and without it (enabled) my 3  o'clock and 9 o'clock  stutter the landscape. 

I'm pretty happy with where things are at, try it out is all I can suggest. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by oakdown

[diego999]

3 hours ago, TZeer said:

Maybe because he is more CPU bound. @diego999 running i5 10400, while you @Qcumber running 5800X3D.

I think this is indeed the case.

Tested again, QVFR with turbo mode off, OpenXR Toolkit disabled. Hornet instant action mission on Syria (you spawn over a town with mountains and a lot of trees: CPU frametime around 16-17ms, sometimes going higher than GPU frametime.

Tried without QVFR, only OpenXR fixed foveated (quality/wide): CPU frametime around 9-10 ms. All other settings were the same.

Just for comparison, tested the same mission in an older Release version I also use (2.8.4). CPU frametime around 7-8 ms.

I guess my old 10400 just doesn't have the extra juice required by QVFR + 2.9.

[LucShep]

4 hours ago, Grodin said:

With Reverb G2 i find DLSS unusable even with "Quality" preset, cockpits go so blurry i can't read labels, can't read F16 MFD texts and all fast moving things ghost horribly. Increasing pixel density helps for the clarity but whats the point because then i lose all the performance i gained to begin with.

Yep, exactly the same here, with Reverb G1 Pro.

MSAA (x2 or x4), PD 1.0 in game, and 100% upto 150% resolution on HMD (be it with SteamVR or OpenXR, +Motion Smoothing locked) still provides best picture quality and performance balance for me, by a country mile.
And your last sentence there says it all. DLSS is pointless here. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by LucShep

[Dangerzone]

16 hours ago, TenienteDan said:

I am 100% blown away by this update. I just tried today and this was the most enjoyable time I had in DCS. Finally is on par with MSFS and IL2 interns of VR performance and quality.

For those struggling with goshting, after many hours of testing in MSFS (and this is 100% applicable to DCS 2.9) the trick for me is using DLSS in quality, which basically provides around 30fps extra on what I usually had before and then crank up SS (supersampling). I tried 1.3 and was super smooth and and very clear.

Edit: Pixel Density in DCS options should have equivalent effect/performance as supersampling (which I personally change through Oculus Tray Tool or Oculus Debug Tool)

This gives me the best combination of quality and performance than any other option (DLAA, MSAA, etc).

This is with Quest2 + 3080 12Gb + 5800x3d.

 

Just a little confused about this. By using DLSS (which as I understand it reduces the resolution to render, and then upscales later) and then cranking up SS or PD (which raises the resolution), aren't you cancelling one out with the other? Are you able to explain the logic with it. (Obviously it's working for you, but the logic part of my brain is spinning in circles). 

I'm also read elsewhere to keep OpenXR Toolkit, and to use CIS for sharpening which gives a sharper picture, but others are saying to ditch it. 

FWIW - I'm using a HP Reverb, so Oculus tools are irrelevant to me. I don't know if that makes any difference?

[TenienteDan]

hace 41 minutos, Dangerzone dijo:

Just a little confused about this. By using DLSS (which as I understand it reduces the resolution to render, and then upscales later) and then cranking up SS or PD (which raises the resolution), aren't you cancelling one out with the other? Are you able to explain the logic with it. (Obviously it's working for you, but the logic part of my brain is spinning in circles). 

I'm also read elsewhere to keep OpenXR Toolkit, and to use CIS for sharpening which gives a sharper picture, but others are saying to ditch it. 

FWIW - I'm using a HP Reverb, so Oculus tools are irrelevant to me. I don't know if that makes any difference?

I don't think it makes any difference. Your Reverb has also settings to increase Pixel Density.

Regarding your question, I don't know the exact technical details but I know the DLSS and Supersampling or pixel density are different techniques. They don't cancel each other.

DLSS smoothes the edges and reduces shimmering a lot, much better than MSAA at a fraction (huge smaller fraction) of performance cost. But DLSS introduces blurriness and goshting with can be alleviated with Supersampling.

This was my finding after months of frustration with MS Flight Simulator. Using DLSS alone was very underwhelming, so I was using DLAA but with worse overall performance. Until I tried Pixel Density (supersampling) 1.5-1.4 and DLSS on quality. 

Exact same scenario applies to DCS and the combination of clarity, performance, soft edges and shimmering is the best I could get of all settings.

Now I settled with 1.3 Supersampling, DLSS quality, smooth filter 0.3 but I even could put shadows on high and it's gorgeous.

 

[Dangerzone]

1 hour ago, TenienteDan said:

I don't think it makes any difference. Your Reverb has also settings to increase Pixel Density.

Regarding your question, I don't know the exact technical details but I know the DLSS and Supersampling or pixel density are different techniques. They don't cancel each other.

DLSS smoothes the edges and reduces shimmering a lot, much better than MSAA at a fraction (huge smaller fraction) of performance cost. But DLSS introduces blurriness and goshting with can be alleviated with Supersampling.

This was my finding after months of frustration with MS Flight Simulator. Using DLSS alone was very underwhelming, so I was using DLAA but with worse overall performance. Until I tried Pixel Density (supersampling) 1.5-1.4 and DLSS on quality. 

Exact same scenario applies to DCS and the combination of clarity, performance, soft edges and shimmering is the best I could get of all settings.

Now I settled with 1.3 Supersampling, DLSS quality, smooth filter 0.3 but I even could put shadows on high and it's gorgeous.

 

OK - I must have my terms mixed up. I thought (in very layman terms):

DLAA was what smoothed the edges and reduced shimmering (the Anti-Aliasing). Aka MSAA but a smarter version of it with less performance hits.

DLSS is a 'super sampling' option that works similar to reducing the PD below 1 where it renders at a lower resolution, and then upscales, but it uses some fancy AI stuff to 'fill in the gaps' when upscaling.  As a crude example, quality might be similar to a PD of 0.9 for rendering, but then upscales with guesswork. Balanced might be equiv of 0.8, performance 0.7, etc...

Regardless of how it works, if that's working for you - I'll definitely be giving it a try my next opportunity. I obviously have some misunderstanding of what DLSS is though. Glad to hear there's more options for me to try/tweak that may give me even better results. 

In regards to the 'smooth filter' you refer to - is that a setting for the oculus? (ie, it's not OpenXR or DCS related)?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Dangerzone

[TenienteDan]

hace 7 minutos, Dangerzone dijo:

OK - I must have my terms mixed up. I thought:

DLAA was what smoothed the edges and reduced shimmering (the Anti-Aliasing)

DLSS is a 'super sampling' option that works similar to reducing the PD below 1 where it renders at a lower resolution, and then upscales, but it uses some fancy AI stuff to 'fill in the gaps' when upscaling.  As a crude example, quality might be similar to a PD of 0.9 for rendering, but then upscales with guesswork. Balanced might be equiv of 0.8, performance 0.7, etc...

Regardless of how it works, if that's working for you - I'll definitely be giving it a try my next opportunity. I obviously have some misunderstanding of what DLSS is though. Glad to hear there's more options for me to try/tweak that may give me even better results. 

In regards to the 'smooth filter' you refer to - is that a setting for the oculus? (ie, it's not OpenXR or DCS related)?

As I said, I am no expert. Maybe DLSS applies DLAA, but as it renders a lower resolution, the performance cost is not as high as using DLAA only.
I should also give it a try. Using DLAA only and Pixel Density 1.2-1.1. I might get better results.

But give this combination a try when you can (DLSS and PD 1.3 -1.4) depending on your system

[CybrSlydr]

I was just coming to post that multi-thread with DLSS and DLAA enabled (along with other things I can't remember, I was just clicking things) is absolutely transformative in VR.  4080, 32GB DDR5, 13900k. 

It was very playable in Liberation before 2.9, but now...  It's an absolutely incredible experience!

Edited October 23, 2023 by CybrSlydr

[MIghtymoo]

5 hours ago, CybrSlydr said:

I was just coming to post that multi-thread with DLSS and DLAA enabled (along with other things I can't remember, I was just clicking things) is absolutely transformative in VR.  4080, 32GB DDR5, 13900k. 

It was very playable in Liberation before 2.9, but now...  It's an absolutely incredible experience!

 

You can not have DLAA and DLSS enabled at the same time, AFAIK.

[Hoirtel]

1 hour ago, MIghtymoo said:

You can not have DLAA and DLSS enabled at the same time, AFAIK.

It does look like DLAA is greyed out when DLSS is on, which looks like it is a forced setting. But could also be me reading the settings page wrong. They look so similar to me once enabled, with DLAA being a bit less ghosting and artificing, but higher performance requirement.

[Marshallman]

Has anyone changed their NVidia 3D settings at all since 2.9?

Is there a requirement to do so?

Regards

 

3 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

It does look like DLAA is greyed out when DLSS is on, which looks like it is a forced setting. But could also be me reading the settings page wrong. They look so similar to me once enabled, with DLAA being a bit less ghosting and artificing, but higher performance requirement.

My take on that is that it is linked and also locked.?

[RealDCSpilot]

Some general advice:

This is a moment similar to the introduction of the OpenXR API for DCS. We will have more of this in the future, remember that the Vulkan API is also in the works. So the first step should be disabling and maybe uninstalling all performance tweaks you are used to because they have a chance to be counter productive. Simply start fresh, you have to be in the best position to find the new performance baseline for your individual system of CPU and GPU combination with "vanilla" DCS first.
What is DLSS? Roughly, it's basically an AA method, but with AI enhanced upscaling and the benefit of "giving" more performance. No other AA method can do that.
Technically it takes the base resolution values that are set(!) - but renders the frame in a lower resolution - then scales the resolution back to the values that are set(!) and reconstructs several image details via AI. To deal with sharpness of the resulting image you have two options: the sharpness slider and most important, with much more power for finetuning -> the base resolution. Simply try to set a slightly higher resolution (VR supersampling setting) you were used to before DCS 2.9 to deal with DLSS "blurriness". You have several options for that, for instance in DCS you have Pixel Density or the resolution slider in the settings of SteamVR.
For some hardware configurations DLSS might bring no performance benefit in VR, here you have the other AA options like DLAA which technically should be the best of all other methods. In the end it's the same thing for finding the best VR performance vs image quality: find your personal best combination of resolution and AA method.

Edited October 23, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[bart]

On the in game settings screen if I enable DLSS the game seems to auto select DLAA, if I turn off DLSS I can still select DLAA on it's own. What I'm finding confusing now is as mentioned above you can't run both DLSS and DLAA at the same time? the game seems to select this automatically in my case. 

Totally confused now! lol.

[RealDCSpilot]

Roughly, the most part of the DLAA algorithm is also a part of DLSS. It doesn't matter what option the DCS menu displays in certain moments, this is only UI code. You can only have DLSS running or DLAA.

[Hoirtel]

3 minutes ago, bart said:

On the in game settings screen if I enable DLSS the game seems to auto select DLAA, if I turn off DLSS I can still select DLAA on it's own. What I'm finding confusing now is as mentioned above you can't run both DLSS and DLAA at the same time? the game seems to select this automatically in my case. 

Totally confused now! lol.

I think the other posts are correct, DLAA is part of DLSS, but DLAA can be run on its own too. 

So far through my testing I have found what I think somebody esle already said. For those of us that are running VR headsets of around 2Kx2K res (Q2, Q3, QPro, G2) its seems the options are no shimmering but a bit of blur and ghosting (DLSS/DLAA + Supersampling) or go with the only option we had before: sharpness and clarity but with shimmering. After way too much testing my own preferred option will be to stick with the shimmering. This is because I do like oculus ASW and I am so used to it now. With a powerfu GPU I find that shimmer can be reduced a bit with 1.2 upsxcaling +MSAA x2 + MFAA (in the nivida control panel). This last one is subtle but does make a difference on top of other options. Small improvement with small perf impact too. However at the end of the day it is really down to which route you prefer and works best on your system.

I think the only way to have clarity and low/no shimmering is to have a high resolution headset with lots more pixels. That way the shimmering will just be less as there is more physical ability to show detail and the requirement for AA will be less. Not tried one myself, hopefully will do at some point.

[WipeUout]

40 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

think the only way to have clarity and low/no shimmering is to have a high resolution headset with lots more pixels.

I can speak to this coming from a Pimax 5kS up to the 8kX.  The increased resolution brings down shimmering to a tolerable level on the 8kX with less impact than using MSAA, at least that was the case for DCS 2.8 and previous.  There is still a long ways to go to get to a point where resolution is enough to counter shimmering, which I guess would be around 60 to 70 PPD.

Nervetheless, image quality is very personnal.  I find that using DLSS is an acceptable compromise to trade some sharpness for an increased performance and almost no shimmering on busy maps.  

[dburne]

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

I can speak to this coming from a Pimax 5kS up to the 8kX.  The increased resolution brings down shimmering to a tolerable level on the 8kX with less impact than using MSAA, at least that was the case for DCS 2.8 and previous.  There is still a long ways to go to get to a point where resolution is enough to counter shimmering, which I guess would be around 60 to 70 PPD.

Nervetheless, image quality is very personnal.  I find that using DLSS is an acceptable compromise to trade some sharpness for an increased performance and almost no shimmering on busy maps.  

 

There must be a million different graphics options one can come up with which is why it can be difficult when trying to compare performance numbers.