reported Long-Range Laser Lineup System not working properly

[Xhonas]

In the current patch (DCS OB 2.8.8.43704) the long-range laser lineup system is not visible on daylight and is barely visible at night. May be a multithreading problem.  I would like to see this problem fixed since this system is very important to provide visual lineup information for case 3 landings. Please see the screenshots and feel free to take a look at it ingame using the trackfile: 

 

nullLong range laser unable to see.trk

nullLong range laser can barely see night.trknull

null

[Flappie]

The LRLS system is not supposed to be visible in daylight, for it is a laser: it should only be visible in nighttime.

In DCS ST, the LRLS system is visible in daylight. That is an issue, and it's reported internally.

[BarTzi]

8 hours ago, Flappie said:

The LRLS system is not supposed to be visible in daylight, for it is a laser: it should only be visible in nighttime.

In DCS ST, the LRLS system is visible in daylight. That is an issue, and it's reported internally.

It's very very hard to notice it even at night, which is the problem. Also being a laser has nothing to do with day/night visibility.

[Flappie]

9 hours ago, BarTzi said:

It's very very hard to notice it even at night, which is the problem. Also being a laser has nothing to do with day/night visibility.

If you have some footage of a visible LRLS in broad daylight, or even in nighttime, I'll be happy to send it to devs.

[Nealius]

If Long-Range Laser Lineup is not visible at nighttime and at longer ranges then a) why does it exist, and b) why would it be called long-range laser lineup?

[Flappie]

This document deals with specifications for LRLS replacement: https://www.sbir.gov/node/1208423

When it reads "the current system", it means ous LRLS.

Quote

The LRLS is currently required to provide useful centerline information to at least 6 nautical miles from the touchdown point on the carrier deck, with a cut-off range of 0.60 nautical miles.

[...]

Issues with the current system include obsolescence, high cost to maintain, excessive size/weight, and a difficulty in projecting the light beam at the required range through poor weather and cloud cover. The Navy desires a new system capable of providing precision long range visual guidance for a pilot on final approach. The system must be easily interpreted by pilots, usable at a distance of at least 10 nmi in clear weather with a desired objective to be used in all weather conditions, and with significant reductions in form factor and weight. Additionally, the current system that provides this suffers from obsolescence/high maintenance cost issues and an inability to burn through bad weather and cloud cover. This SBIR will need to address both issues.

So as you can see, the real LRLS is far from perfect.

Again, if you do have videos showing an approach in daylight or nighttime where the LRLS is clearly visible, please provide them. I can't ask devs to set it brighter if it's not in real life. It's a sim, remember. I need proof.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Flappie
typo

[BarTzi]

15 hours ago, Flappie said:

If you have some footage of a visible LRLS in broad daylight, or even in nighttime, I'll be happy to send it to devs.

I don't need footage to prove you wrong. You said, and I quote: "The LRLS system is not supposed to be visible in daylight, for it is a laser". As I said, being a laser has nothing to do with it. I don't need a document or a video to prove laser can be visible during the day. Can you spot it from miles away during the day? who knows. If it's on, it's visible, even during the day.

Edited October 18, 2023 by BarTzi

[BIGNEWY]

Flappie is trying to help you, if he makes a report the first thing the team will ask for is evidence or a real world example. 

Without it he will not be able to push the issue with the team. It is the same for me, I need evidence to back up any claim I make for change in DCS. 

thank you

[BarTzi]

17 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Flappie is trying to help you, if he makes a report the first thing the team will ask for is evidence or a real world example. 

Without it he will not be able to push the issue with the team. It is the same for me, I need evidence to back up any claim I make for change in DCS. 

thank you

Flappie is stating the LRLS light cannot be seen during the day because it is a laser, which is false. This is what I was referring to, and this subject is not even DCS-related. As for the rest - may I suggest asking your SMEs before you ask us to search the internet for that one very specific frame in a video that will prove us right? A subject matter expert can easily tell you if the system is on during the day, and how easy it is to spot during the night.

[Micr0]

Needles 

[BIGNEWY]

7 minutes ago, BarTzi said:

Flappie is stating the LRLS light cannot be seen during the day because it is a laser, which is false.

great show me a real world example of the laser being seen in daylight, and we will also ask an SME. 

but until we have confirmation we wont be able to change it. 

All Flappie was asking for is evidence so he can report it, so go easy on him please. 

 

[draconus]

You can barely see it at 2.5nm in this RL night video.

Edited October 18, 2023 by draconus

[Nealius]

CNATRA P-816 states that at night it should be visible out to 10nm. The laser being difficult to see in daylight is fine, but currently it is not particularly usable at night either, which is the bigger issue IMO.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Nealius

[BIGNEWY]

Difficulty to see it at night has been reported already, there seems to be an issue with its vertical limit. 

As for the day time, we will ask but at the moment no evidence. 

thank you

 

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

As for the day time, we will ask but at the moment no evidence. 

Ask your carrier SMEs if it's supposed to be even turned on unless the weather is Case III. I suspect it's not, but it should be in some unclassified Navy docs. If it's not being used for anything, there's no reason to waste electricity and the laser's lifetime, those things wear out eventually. 

[BarTzi]

12 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

great show me a real world example of the laser being seen in daylight, and we will also ask an SME. 

but until we have confirmation we wont be able to change it. 

All Flappie was asking for is evidence so he can report it, so go easy on him please. 

 

I wasn't asking for the LRLS to be easily noticeable during the day. Just stating the fact that a visible laser won't suddenly become invisible during daytime, but it might be very hard to spot.  

[Micr0]

Ok, I've been holding off on chiming in. But here's the deal. I flew in the Navy for 3 years before being discharged for a medical. But I can tell you this: The LRLS is worthless and no one used it. Why? Because during day Case 1 you're not going to use it, as it would only be visible in the groove and the LRLS isn't part of "Ball, Lineup, AoA". I could not even tell you if it's even turned on during the day because you're never in a position to use it. During day, Case 3, you're not going to see it because it's foggy. During night, God help you if you told anyone you were using the laser to line up unless there was some sort of issue with ICLS/ACLS. You are expected to be inside the cockpit scanning your instruments until the 3/4 mile call. That ridiculous system would only (possibly) be useful during Day Case 2 or if there was a malfunction with a primary system on the ship or in the plane. Give it a rest with the laser. It's not a realistic system ball flyers would, or will, use. It's a novelty.

[Nealius]

Does our laser system even fit the timeline of our Hornet and Tomcat anyway?

[draconus]

8 hours ago, Micr0 said:

During night, God help you if you told anyone you were using the laser to line up unless there was some sort of issue with ICLS/ACLS.

Cool story and I appreaciate every bit of it but in this thread we're not interested who would have use it but the visibility.

[Micr0]

The laser is no more visible than the ship itself. It does not have some magical powers that make it more visible. It is a light attached to the ship, it just happens to be a directional light. A more realistic concern should be the visibility of the landing area from a distance. 

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, Micr0 said:

The laser is no more visible than the ship itself. It does not have some magical powers that make it more visible. It is a light attached to the ship, it just happens to be a directional light.

Thx, Micr0. Laser, being very coherent, is not just a simple light - they wouldn't forbid people to point their handheld lasers into pilots' canopies if it was just a light. So, you confirm that it's usually visible in the night as seen in the video above? Barely visible from like 2.5nm same as the amber vertical lights on the stern?

[Micr0]

The laser in the LRLS is an "eye-safe" laser (hence it can be pointed directly into a cockpit). I'm far from an expert on that system, from what I was told eye-safe lasers emit a much lower intensity of power and wavelength that is also less intense. What that means for the viewer.... It's just a light. I remember picking it up once at about 4 miles, but that was because I was lined up right and was getting the green  light. At 3 miles and on centerline it's barely visible, as it blends in with the drop-down lights.

[boerdi]

Concerning daylight operations, a former Growler pilot gave me this answer on his YT channel:

 

 

Taken from my post on June 30 in this thread:

 

[captain_dalan]

@BIGNEWY
Late arrival here, so sorry if i act like necroing the thread. Just a personal opinion, but IIRC, we almost never take into account camera footage, be it a video or a photo, to be indicative of real life visual conditions. For a number of reasons as well, not the leas of which would be eye adaptivity. So if we decide on how to treat the laser lineup, i would be all against using those as reference. Could we stick to first hand accounts and SME's? 

[Flappie]

@captain_dalan Please read carefully the post just above yours.