resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

12 hours ago, Biggus said:

Because that's not what everybody sees.  It varies with software settings, hardware and resolution.  ED's task is to now find a way to provide spotting parity across all of those variables.

Pretty much, yeah.

The problem has always been that DCS spotting has been broken in every conceivable way at once, often in the most unintuitive way possible, and this is a huge step towards fixing that.

Before this, high-resolution players could see planes out to impossible distances — dozens (plural) of nautical miles — but details got lost in the noise at the upper edge of WVR. There, it was the exact opposite: low-resolution players could see planes far larger and thus far easier than those with higher resolutions. Of the two, the latter was a really odd one because, where it probably mattered the most, you benefitted greatly from having worse visual quality and hardware.

Only within a rather narrow band, maybe out to gun range or so, was there any parity and beyond that, it was all broken with different sides arguing that it was “good” based on what objectively unfair advantage their particular hardware setup gave them. Many of them were (and still are) arguing adamantly that their particular advantage must under no circumstances be touched, whereas the “other side's” advantage must be nerfed. So of course, this important step towards nerfing both sides and brining them into parity across the entire range of visual spotting will be heavily criticized and fought against.

Ultimately, this change finally opens up the option for having more realistic spotting (something that DCS has never had before) for everyone, equally. This is inherently and unquestionably good.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Tippis

[Xupicor]

In VR (G2 / 4080 / MSAAx4 or DLSS) the dots are too blocky for me. They look like quite blurry squares. In terms of stereo vision - they look as if they are much closer to me than they are. They do in fact look like they're closer than other airplanes that are actually closer and are no longer rendered as that blurry square.

When I see them I always think: "Oh, is that a Huey in the distance?" -- but no. As the airplane gets closer, at some point the blocky, blurry square fades out suddenly and leaves a barely visible, pretty small airplane in the distance. That transition doesn't look good at all.

 

It's a step in the right direction, I guess, but needs more time in the oven. I much preferred the units going down to the size of a pixel.

[Nedum]

I like the new spotting system. For me, it's a step in the right direction.

What I've seen is the "spotting dots" disappear at some view angles. That should be fixed. I am playing only in VR. My VR resolution is >= 4312*5102 pixels, no AA and no DLSS effect is enabled.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Nedum

[brodie4598]

Reverb G2 here and a 4090. Can't stand the new dots. I was able to easily see a long convoy of approaching ground units that were in the middle of a forest (on a road)  from more than 5 miles in an Apache at 50 feet. Looked like a long black line where there should have been a forest. 

I read earlier someone else with a G2 thought it looked great so I think this is something we need a slider for at the very least but my above experience was on an MP server so it was very much an exploit being able to see that. 

[Johan4668]

I just been playing on 39 ppd on 4ya and loved it.. i have 4090 and i9 everything hi settings..120 fps and the dots are perfect.. when i lower the ppd the dots are geting larger and larger.. so I see why other players on don't like that.. but for hi res 4k players thisnis the awnser to our problems.

[Nocke217]

For an old bugger with fading eyes playing on 1440p, like me, the new dots are a godsend. Please keep them!

[Fresh]

 

 

This is what I see (albeit zoomed in, so that you see what I mean).

I started a mission at the carrier, pressed F9 and zoomed out until the helicopter view dot appeared, then rolled my mouse wheel back and forth. In the second half I looked at a tanker far away and swayed back and forth to vary the distance.

[PeevishMonkey]

As for the visibility of contacts, this is a very old game that all players of military flight simulators have been playing on forums since ancient times... 

I know, there are statistical data for detection ranges of WWII aircraft. These are generally very different from the current DCS values. 
Typical aircraft detection ranges in nautical miles: fighter - 3.5, bomber - 6.0

You need to understand that visual perception is a very complex thing. Only one example: at a considerable distance we can see very thin, but very long wires (this, by the way, explains why a formation of aircraft is visible well and far away, compared to a single aircraft), and not notice the “spot” sparrows at the same distance...
It would be reasonable if ED did something like 10 km for everyone, and so that there wouldn’t be these fat flies that appear at 2 km in the form of either black dots or white ones against the background of clouds...
But we have a very different planes - from I-16 to B-52... Logic and realism sey that visibility distance must be different - from 6.5 to 32 km...

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[Biggus]

I posted a day or two ago about my perception of spotting at 3440x1440, and I've spent some time experimenting with my G2 today.

The dots in the G2 are far too large from 3nm out, and the LOD change at 3nm is far too dramatic.  At 3.1nm, it's a great big blob.  At 2.9, it's a speck that you probably can't see even when you know where you need to be looking.  The original spotting fix mod seemed a good bit 'gentler' (for lack of a better word) at the point where the LOD changed.

I'm still pretty impressed at the devs for a first pass at this.

 

Options.lua

Edited October 23, 2023 by Biggus
Wrong options.lua

[KoN]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:11 AM, James DeSouza said:

I am amazed the amount of people saying this is good.  You could get the exact same effect as this by playing with labels on.  Why force this awful thing on to other people?  "Hey you know what would make this game better?  Have everyone's positions constantly broadcast to you by giant floating blocks!"

 

On an index, 150% resolution in steam VR (the default) and 100% resolution in DCS.

 

Hell I don't care if it puts me at a disadvantage.  Just give me an option to disable this ridiculous eyesore.

 

 

options.lua 8.34 kB · 5 downloads

 

Its only forced because people cant turn them off . Some people are getting good results and some are not . That`s part of being Open-Beta . 

Trying to turn them off at this given time don`t work in Autoexe.bat .

Im sure this will be fixed , Its not just aircraft that`s effected its weapons too , Fire Rockets and your seen big black dots heading towards its target . 

2.9 has come with Bugs as expected , I think over all its a step in the right direction . Just needs some tweaking .

An on-off switch if you want to go back to how it was .

Having a slider would help but this would have to be greyed out when in servers . 

[KoN]

These are some test i did on a 43" 4k TV , with MSAA x 2  . With No up-scaling . 

Photo1 - 1080p

Photo2 - 2k .

Photo3 - 4k .

I can see dots at roughly 25-miles faint but i know some thing is there .

NO radar only mark one eye-ball , sat in front of my TV at arms length .

In 4k this sim looks amazing , So sharp and clear . 

As you can see on my -  TV the Dots look very identical , In size and shape . At Different ranges print-screen was taken roughly @ 15 miles down to 8 miles .

ZOOM in to see dots . ?

To me this looks just right on my TV screen . 

Will test in VR later . !!!

Edited October 23, 2023 by KoN

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, PeevishMonkey said:

I know, there are statistical data for detection ranges of WWII aircraft. These are generally very different from the current DCS values. 
Typical aircraft detection ranges in nautical miles: fighter - 3.5, bomber - 6.0

Over the years, PC games have convinced generations of players that they’re supposed to easily see targets at 4x this range. Can you imagine the howl if DCS was actually realistic like this? DCS was probably better when it didn’t have any dots at all. 

[KoN]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Over the years, PC games have convinced generations of players that they’re supposed to easily see targets at 4x this range. Can you imagine the howl if DCS was actually realistic like this? DCS was probably better when it didn’t have any dots at all. 

Sitting at home in comfort in front of a monitor or TV or VR headset is completely different that actual real life fighter combat . How did Top scoring aces get Top scores . 

We are trying to get a happy medium here across all forms of setups  . Mr sharp . 

Testing VR . Pico 3 link DP cable . Same setting MSAA x 2 none MT .

SteamVR @ 2748 x 2880. per eye . 

First photos show 10 miles this is when i can actually see some thing. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by KoN

[Nascar]

The spotting update would have been a huge success if it worked in VR correctly. It sounds like the update made the spotting the same for monitors as it was in VR previously. I chased down the blimps on the Normandy 4YA server from half the map away using a G2 in 2.8. Now though instead of a single spec off in the distance, things look like a billboard at a certain range. I think when that gets fixed, most people will be very happy with the spotting. 

 

As for the Typical aircraft detection ranges in nautical miles: fighter - 3.5, bomber - 6.0

We have had that before, and it pissed everyone off as you were on someone's 6 and they disappeared in front of you. It was just as silly and unrealistic.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Nascar

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, KoN said:

We are trying to get a happy medium here across all forms of setups

I get that. I’m actually sorta ok with it now, using a monitor. I think it’s a little excessive but not horrible, the targets are a bit too easy to see in the 10-14 mile range whereas in reality they’d be very tough to pick out. 
But If this can be solved for VR too then there’s hope. 
To be honest the 2.8 spotting on a 4K screen seemed pretty realistic to me, but of course in 1080p is was farcical. 
 

The most realistic solution really might be to get rid of pixel sized dots altogether but people would howl. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by SharpeXB

[KoN]

VR test Pico 3 link with display cable . . . 

First set of photos @ 6.23 miles . Same set up . . 

Second set of photos @ 1.88 miles  .

The dots disappear and go into aircraft shape . As you can see its nearly impossible to see the dots or air-frame when they make their LOD  transformation . 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by KoN

[PeevishMonkey]

A couple of examples how airplanes look like on my 27" 2560x1440 monitor at different distance [km] (FOV 97.5 deg, MSAA x 4).

FW190:

and Ju88:

As we can see, there is a dependence of visibility range and size of airplane. It's perfect! Thank you, ED. Perhaps, it would be better to have a little more bigger difference... 

What raise questions:

1) As for FW190, at 2 km I see additional dot to current LOD. And it's looks like stable until at least 5 km.

2) from 2 to more then 8 km  I see no changes in DOT (size, color, contrast, transparency). For Ju88 it some where between 3 and more them 10 km.

3) More contrast DOT visible much better at greater distance them more closer LOD. It's sad...

Was it reasonable to integrate it in "LOD Switch Factor" ?

Edited October 24, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[nuNce]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:25 PM, Licenceless said:

I'm an Oculus Quest user, my spotting before wasn't the best, but I could see like most of us - an average mkI eyeball user. With the new spotting update, I can see way more, and by that, I mean everything, every dot is huge. Honestly, this is War Thunder level of mega dots you can see across the map. I can see everything and everywhere in the range of what I can estimate 50km. I know I can revert back to the old way. The problem with this is now I am going to be at a disadvantage compared to people who use the new spotting. Also, DLSS which I actually need makes them even bigger. I honestly think you guys have overdone it. Please consider reworking it.

Kisses and hugs

 

GOD NO! We finally have decent spotting and can have real fun in dogfights being able to finally have a quick glance at your instruments without losing track of the enemy. Don't event start complaining about "My god, dots are too big", they are PERFECT right now!

[nuNce]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:23 AM, PeevishMonkey said:

As for the visibility of contacts, this is a very old game that all players of military flight simulators have been playing on forums since ancient times... 

I know, there are statistical data for detection ranges of WWII aircraft. These are generally very different from the current DCS values. 
Typical aircraft detection ranges in nautical miles: fighter - 3.5, bomber - 6.0

You need to understand that visual perception is a very complex thing. Only one example: at a considerable distance we can see very thin, but very long wires (this, by the way, explains why a formation of aircraft is visible well and far away, compared to a single aircraft), and not notice the “spot” sparrows at the same distance...
It would be reasonable if ED did something like 10 km for everyone, and so that there wouldn’t be these fat flies that appear at 2 km in the form of either black dots or white ones against the background of clouds...
But we have a very different planes - from I-16 to B-52... Logic and realism sey that visibility distance must be different - from 6.5 to 32 km...

 

 

It's very different to bee able to see something at a distance, and being able to "spot" it while flying, managing the engines and navigation and your weapon systems. DCS 2.8 had a terrible spotting. At one time me and a mate of mine were trying to fly in formation on two Mig-21, unable to find eachother over Caucasus while using the F10 map and Teamspeak on a 1440p.

Finally, after so much time, DCS 2.9 addresses those issues, and to me is a much more important improvement than any DLSS or FSR will ever be.

[KoN]

Over all its a step in the right direction . It just need tweaking . Different setups gives a different outlook , As seen here .

VR definitely needs a Tweak . And the LOD change from black Dot to air-frame needs a tweak .

Also a Turn on Turn off setting , Too give options . 

Edit ....Also noticed if in MT.exe. The black dots are more prominent . I think this has some thing to do with the Ghosting in MT . 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by KoN

[MysteriousHonza]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:34 PM, Licenceless said:

@SharpeXB I think what they did is they enlarged all the dots across the board so all VR users as well as 1080p users see even bigger dots than before.

Iam blind as hell on 1080P, way worse than in 2.8. I used 2x msaa in 2.8, now i use 4x and i cant see anything at pretty much point blank. Previously i could spot dots at range, now i cant spot until like 2-5km.

[Midair]

It's the worst thing of the new update for me, I play in VR, it's very unrealistic and it looks horrible. The Dot render line on the autoexe file change nothing to fix this thing.

[SharpeXB]

19 hours ago, nuNce said:

We finally have decent spotting and can have real fun in dogfights

Well the goal here is to make DCS realistic, not “fun”. Unless fun is realistic. Excessive visibility destroys all realism in air combat. 

[Why485]

TL;DR: Very similar to the dot mod, which is disappointing because I'm not a fan of the dot mod's pixel-based approach, and ED's solution inherits most of the issues the mod had. That said, it's still a big improvement over how the dots used to work in 2.8, and the first step in the right direction I've seen ED make on this subject in 7 years, almost to the month. Yes, I've been counting.

There is also a serious bug that makes the dots visible from the full render range, usually caused by clouds, that I think is the cause of many of the "I can see dots at 50 miles" comments I've seen. When dots are in front of anything transparent, including the 2D cirrus high altitude clouds, they are visible even if they should already be completely faded out.

I am also very, very wary of this discussion being seen as "how to fix the dots" because IMO dots are not a good solution, especially in isolation. Ideally the feedback in this thread is used to build a better system rather than just tweaking the dots. While tweaked/better dots would still be far better than what we had before, I know DCS can do better than that.

For reference, I play at 2560x1440 on a 27" monitor. My full thoughts, both good and bad, below:

• Like the mod, the dot size does change based on resolution. I.e. higher res, bigger dots. This is a good thing, because higher resolutions aren't "punished" with dots of a smaller apparent size. Like the mod, it does seem to hit a floor at 1080, which means theoretically running the game at resolutions like 1280x720 would give you bigger dots, but that resolution is so low I find that of dubious utility.
• Like the mod, the dots fade based on distance, which means you can't see dots 50 miles away. For a MiG-29 sized target, they appear to become fully visible ~5 miles, and fade out ~10 miles. 10 miles is, on average probably too far away to be realistic, and perhaps fading more close in would be more realistic.
• The distances at which a dot appears vary depending on the size of the object. This is a pretty interesting one, and not something the mod could do. A MiG-29's dot fades away at ~10 miles, but a B-52's dot fades at ~35 miles. Considering you can see airliners in the sky 30 miles away this isn't that crazy, but I do think the effect that size has on dot fade distances is exaggerated and should probably be reduced, especially since that kind of long distance spotting is often because of a specific lighting condition. I have airliners fly overhead at various altitudes all day, and sometimes cross reference distances/altitudes on Flight Aware, so this is not me making things up, but relaying my experiences.
• Like the mod, when the dot gets disabled because the model is too close (~1.2 miles for a fighter), an aircraft goes from very visible to suddenly invisible. This is one of the biggest problems with the current system. In my opinion, the priority of any kind of aircraft visibility system, is to ensure that the player's experience WVR matches documented data. A pixel dot based system's greatest shortcoming is in the WVR realm, and that's a big part of why I have issues with this approach.
• The ranges at which dots disappear (close in) and fade out (far away) seem to be based only on range, and seemingly have nothing to do with FOV. This probably a good thing. Changing LOD or visibility range settings has no effect on these ranges. (VR complicates this through what I think is DCS being too aggressive with culling objects at a distance with VR's super wide FOV.)
• As mentioned above, there is a pretty serious bug with the dots, and it's that when they are in front of clouds, they are visible to the full render distance (~50 miles, but depends on FOV). This in effect means that if you are flying low, and some plane is above you with clouds behind it, you can see them from quite a large distance. This I think is where a lot of the "I can see dots at 50 miles" comments are coming from.
• Both FSR and TAA are inadvisable to use because of their negative effect on the dots. TAA fades the dots the faster they move across the screen, while FSR has its own set of oddities. For best dot visibility, the solution is still running at native resolution, with MSAA to taste. Having sharpening now built into DCS is nice too and can help. I don't need to run Reshade anymore.
• Running FSR at low settings (e.g. 0.5) does not create gigantic dots. I was curious if this was going to be the case, but it doesn't seem to be. With FSR enabled, I'm not sure what math is being used to calculate the dot size, but it almost seems like it's using the final resolution, and not the downscaled resolution. Regardless of what's happening behind the scenes, this means that dots are very difficult to impossible see with FSR enabled.
• Unlike the mod, dots don't seem to be applied to missiles. This is a very good thing. Like the mod, dots are still applied to vehicles. Personally, I like this, but I think it's debatable on whether this is good or not.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Why485

[PeevishMonkey]

24 минуты назад, Why485 сказал:

The ranges at which dots disappear (close in) and fade out (far away) seem to be based only on range, and seemingly have nothing to do with FOV.

seems true 

FOV 120 deg:

 

FOV 61 deg:

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