resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[KoN]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:26 AM, Parkour said:

Updated as I could still see it's posts:

1. Hover your cursor over Tippis's icon.
2. Wait for the pop-up menu.
3. Select the Ignore button at the bottom right.
4. Select Update Preferences in the new screen.
5. Select the Gear icon next to the name in the Ignored Users list
6. Select Change Ignored Content
7. Select Posts, Messages, Mentions and Signatures
8. Select Update Preferences

Finally, it's gone.

Grow up .

If you don't like it PM each other's accounts and work it out.

This is an adult platform for DCS spotting issues not your issues. 

Kids . 

[KoN]

5 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

I haven't posted since the last patch. Currently, DCS is the perfect production for me. It is obvious that satisfied players do not participate much on the forum. I see everyone with 30nm. On Cold War servers, I can shoot 4~5 blind pilots in one flight. It's an amazing feeling how they keep falling and falling. As for better enemy detection, I recommend setting all possible graphic options to minimum. This gives you the opportunity to observe your opponent from an even further distance. We can also turn off trees and buildings. This is a very nice option, especially in PvP servers... additionally, in the most realistic military simulator for civilians. This gives an incredible advantage and it is available to everyone :D. At the end of my very wise description of the situation, I recommend the MiG19 plane! The plane can take off and land on any surface available in the game. Additionally, he returns wonderfully to the base without a wing and in flames

ps.

The dots sometimes cover the plane when I'm close to it. This is a bit problematic when identifying an opponent. But it's good that we have a text radar on "Enigma"

Have a nice day Greetings to the Blue Enigma paratroopers

Yes this simulator is very real . Everyone screaming it's a realistic flight simulator  .

No it's a broken so called flight simulator. 

 

Yet here we are with bigger problems. 

[SharpeXB]

I can’t begrudge anyone doing everything within the rules to win, technically that’s not cheating. But the spotting system shouldn’t be open to easy exploits like lowering resolution and such. Players don’t want to be forced to look at an ugly game in order to not be at a disadvantage. The previous v2.8 version was definitely open to such exploits, so much so that radar wasn’t even needed in the game. I think we would all like that exploit to be removed. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by SharpeXB

[BeerNfrites]

On 10/28/2024 at 12:38 AM, Tippis said:

If we look at the LEVEL_NEUTRAL_DOT definition, they're placed with the alignment “CenterCenter”, so they should be pretty much right on top.

Of course, there's also the “LEVEL_DOT” (which is a funny name for it doesn't even use dots for most range segments) and those are aligned with the dot_symbol function, which places them as “CenterBottom”, so there's a lot of dot definitions to keep track of.

The labels file is just a mess of different-generation legacy codes and comments for how stuff is defined.

That said, if the dot labels are jumping around even with that specific alignment, we might have another fun bug on our hands. Or, worse, it differs from one upgrade path to another, or from one install to another, so the supposed default appearance actually… isn't. That would explain a horrible amount of things as far as how differently people feel about the dot labels… Brrr…

 

Definitely not how they display for me. I have a clearly visible grey label dot above the plane model and then as I zoom out the spotting dot appears below this.
I tried to take a screenshot but it doesn't appear as visible or defined on the mirror as in HMD.

I haven't ever changed my spotting dots config file and was on open beta previously.

Screenshot shows dot neutral label and spotting dot.

Edited October 29, 2024 by BeerNfrites

[Branimir76]

On 10/28/2024 at 8:41 PM, Cab said:

I’d be willing to bet the problem is on your end, and likely not difficult to correct.

 

 

You would loose that bet.

On 10/28/2024 at 9:02 PM, MAXsenna said:

He's just trying to have this issue solved! Why won't you post screen grabs? I'd like to see those from 10 feet.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

What good is you seeing me flying 10 ft close to another aircraft?

On 10/28/2024 at 9:32 PM, Cab said:

But at what range? Branimir76 wrote he sees them when the aircraft is as close as a couple of feet.

I see nothing like that

 

No. The question was how do I fly formation. I explained. Problems start from a mile away

[YoYo]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:51 PM, Tippis said:

Can you catch a screen shot, preferably showing different contacts at different ranges and sizes? And as png.

Distance a few miles, zoom, half the object is regular LOD (A-10C) of the model that has already appeared and half is big box dot. Currently this is the worst solution of all of these.

Edited October 29, 2024 by YoYo

[MAXsenna]

57 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

What good is you seeing me flying 10 ft close to another aircraft?

Was only miscommunication on your end. 

[Cab]

2 hours ago, Branimir76 said:

You would loose that bet.

What good is you seeing me flying 10 ft close to another aircraft?

No. The question was how do I fly formation. I explained. Problems start from a mile away

Yep. This is a waste of time.

Good luck with your problems.

[Tippis]

11 hours ago, Turbonix said:

That is exactly my definition of an exploit... 
That should be impossible to do.

  Good news: the spotting dots are intended to get rid of exactly that kind of thing, and going back to the old state when this was standard is not exactly going to solve anything. It was even worse before. Again, there's a reason why some people want to go back to that state so they can get their nonsensical advantages back.

 

6 hours ago, BeerNfrites said:

Definitely not how they display for me. I have a clearly visible grey label dot above the plane model and then as I zoom out the spotting dot appears below this.
I tried to take a screenshot but it doesn't appear as visible or defined on the mirror as in HMD.

I haven't ever changed my spotting dots config file and was on open beta previously.

Screenshot shows dot neutral label and spotting dot.

Nice! Thank you. That's a pretty good illustration even if it doesn't fully match the HMD optical effect.

Do I understand it correctly if the darker upper/left dot is the label, and the faded lower/right one is the spotting dot? It looks like they are doing what they should in terms of general appearance — the right colours, very different fading schemes etc. It's just that the alignment is way off on the label. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the alignment sits on the wrong plane in the binocular rendering, so it gets confused about what point in space it should be centred on. It's a tricky question, and I understand if it's too fine a detail to really tell, but would you say that the mirror picture is more like the right or the left eye? Just theorising, really, but still… And I suppose we could also get back to that age-old question of what even counts as the centre of the target itself. If it's trying to pick the cockpit as a centre point, that would of course also shift the dot, but it shouldn't be by that much.

Could you check what your DCS World\Config\Views\Labels.lua file looks like, and in particular the block defining local function NEUTRAL_DOT?  In particular, there should be a line that sets the actual dot that says res[last_x] = {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}. Or does yours say anything else?

 

4 hours ago, Branimir76 said:

What good is you seeing me flying 10 ft close to another aircraft?

Because everyone is posting images from when the target is far off in the distance. You say there's a huge problem when they're close-up as well, and it would be nice to see an illustration of that, especially since neither labels nor spotting dots should even show up at that distance. But as YoYo's picture shows, they are a bit aggressive close in so the question is one of exactly how close is that still the case? As such, it's important to figure out of those are out of whack or if you're seeing some other kind of artefacting or rendering error.

 

3 hours ago, YoYo said:

Distance a few miles, zoom, half the object is regular LOD (A-10C) of the model that has already appeared and half is big box dot. Currently this is the worst solution of all of these.

Thank you. That's horrible. And very different from what I'm seeing. So yay.

Yes, there really doesn't seem to be any need for a dot at all at that range. I'm guessing this is with labels off from the colour and shape of that dot so we're not dealing with any interference from that? And no generative rendering like DLSS?

Edited October 30, 2024 by Tippis

[YoYo]

Im using MSAA, not DLSS or DLAA (I dont like this ghosting behind moving objects).

Edited October 30, 2024 by YoYo

[Zakson85]

DCS 2.9.9.2280
the size of the dots in vr on the quest3 set is now much better balanced than before. Unfortunately, they still disappear when there are more than 100 objects/units. Again, the disappearance starts with airplane dots. Positive change, thank you. Now please deal with this disappearance of contacts, it will make me give you my wallet again

[BeerNfrites]

20 hours ago, Tippis said:

Nice! Thank you. That's a pretty good illustration even if it doesn't fully match the HMD optical effect.

Do I understand it correctly if the darker upper/left dot is the label, and the faded lower/right one is the spotting dot? It looks like they are doing what they should in terms of general appearance — the right colours, very different fading schemes etc. It's just that the alignment is way off on the label. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the alignment sits on the wrong plane in the binocular rendering, so it gets confused about what point in space it should be centred on. It's a tricky question, and I understand if it's too fine a detail to really tell, but would you say that the mirror picture is more like the right or the left eye? Just theorising, really, but still… And I suppose we could also get back to that age-old question of what even counts as the centre of the target itself. If it's trying to pick the cockpit as a centre point, that would of course also shift the dot, but it shouldn't be by that much.

Could you check what your DCS World\Config\Views\Labels.lua file looks like, and in particular the block defining local function NEUTRAL_DOT?  In particular, there should be a line that sets the actual dot that says res[last_x] = {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}. Or does yours say anything else?

 

Yes the upper/left dot is the label and the lower right is the spotting dot. If I switch to abbreviated that is displayed below the aircraft like a blue or red ^ arrow.
I'll check what the difference is between left/right and mirror. I think I have my mirror to display left eye. The screen shot was captured from the mirror.

The following was captured through the headset screenshot function, you can see the dot is centred on this but still above the model. The spotting dot is not visible due to close range.

My config says the same as you have 

res[last_x]     = {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}

edit: This was all pre-patch.

Edited October 30, 2024 by BeerNfrites

[Tippis]

18 minutes ago, BeerNfrites said:

Yes the upper/left dot is the label and the lower right is the spotting dot. If I switch to abbreviated that is displayed below the aircraft like a blue or red ^ arrow.
I'll check what the difference is between left/right and mirror. I think I have my mirror to display left eye. The screen shot was captured from the mirror.

The following was captured through the headset screenshot function, you can see the dot is centred on this but still above the model. The spotting dot is not visible due to close range.

My config says the same as you have 

res[last_x]     = {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}

 

Thank you. That at least makes it look like the “centre” might be the centre of the bounding box for the model rather than what one might intuitively think of as as the centre of the aircraft. So the tail fin pushes the whole thing up a meter or three, and the dot is projected in the middle of empty space. At least that kind of sort-of-correct-but-not-what-you'd-expect maths would explain why it's offset. Hmm… time to experiment.

[Parkour]

The patch is definitely an improvement; however, we are still unable to turn off spotting dots in VR.  Here is what they look like at 7.4nm. Four black squares floating in space.

 

@BIGNEWY Is there a particular reason we aren't able to turn off Improved Spotting Dots in VR?

The tooltip per the patch notes don't provide any insight into why they can't be turned off in VR as the dots are still rendered independent of zoom factor and is a "function" of object size. "With this option enabled the Spotting dots (distant visual contacts) are rendered independently of camera zoom factor. The dots visibility is a function of object size only."

Patch notes mention of Spotting Dots: "Spotting dots size in VR adjusted to be smaller in certain cases based on feedback. We are still working on different preset logic for VR. (Please be advised that setting “Improved spotting dots” does not affect presence of spotting dots in VR, please read the setting tooltip)."

Thanks

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by Parkour

[Avenger31]

8 minutes ago, Parkour said:

The patch is definitely an improvement; however, we are still unable to turn off spotting dots in VR.  Here is what they look like at 7.4nm. Four black squares floating in space.

 

@BIGNEWY Is there a particular reason we aren't able to turn off Improved Spotting Dots in VR?

Thanks

 

They decided to ruin what they were working on fo decade. RIP DCS

[Robi Hobby]

I'm currently downloading the update. It's taking 7 hours.
This is a Joke, right? The spotting dots in VR can't be turned off in the Menu?   I'll test it.       If that's the case, I won't be playing DCS Word for another Month. 

Thanks in advance ED. 

[SharpeXB]

I wonder how long it will take ED to figure out that this simply won’t work because:
- If the dot is bigger than the 3D model it will look too big and hide it. 
- If the dot is smaller than the 3D model there’s no point in having it.

No size for the dot will ever work, the only way to win is not to play. 

[Turbonix]

@BIGNEWY Here is my feedback for the latest update:
spotting dots in Quest 3 are a bit smaller now, but still a mega conspicuous black dot in space from 2-3 nm, whereby you simply can't estimate whether it's an airplane or maybe a parachute and whether it's at a distance of 3 nm or maybe 30 nm isn´t possible to estimate either, because is´s only a black 2d dot overlay, unchangeable in size. In my opinion, this is just annoying, immersion-killing and ultimately game breaking.
I haven't even tested the spotting dots max visible range, probably still around 40-60 miles...
An additionally at longer ranges the dots still switch from dark black to shiny white in front of a cloud. 
no sry 
I'm out again 
and still happy with IL2

Tested with Quest3, resolution x1.3, DLAA

Edited October 30, 2024 by Turbonix

[BeerNfrites]

8 minutes ago, Turbonix said:

@BIGNEWY Here is my feedback for the latest update:
spotting dots in Quest 3 are a bit smaller now, but still a mega conspicuous black dot in space from 2-3 nm, whereby you simply can't estimate whether it's an airplane or maybe a parachute and whether it's at a distance of 3 nm or maybe 30 nm isn´t possible to estimate either, because is´s only a black 2d dot overlay, unchangeable in size. In my opinion, this is just annoying, immersion-killing and ultimately game breaking.
I haven't even tested the spotting dots max visible range, probably still around 40-60 miles...
no sry 
I'm out again 
and still happy with IL2

Tested with Quest3, resolution x1.3, DLAA

 

Are you using Quad Views? 

I'm running Virtual Desktop godlike, with quad views at 1.1 and DLAA and literally have no dots now at any range.

[Cab]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

the only way to win is not to play. 

How about a nice a game of chess?

[Turbonix]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb BeerNfrites:

Are you using Quad Views? 

no, somehow i was never really happy with Quadviews. Of course it gained a few percent more fps in the end, but every time i tried to set it up, one of my CPU cores was constantly on the limit, which resulted in nasty microfreezes..
additionally i always had a thin black line seperating the middle high res area to the peripherial lower res area, no matter what i tried to smoothen the transition from high to low res.
So i just use OpenXR

Edited October 30, 2024 by Turbonix

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Cab said:

How about a nice a game of chess?

Exactly

[BeerNfrites]

9 minutes ago, Turbonix said:

no, somehow i was never really happy with Quadviews. Of course it gained a few percent more fps in the end, but every time i tried to set it up, one of my CPU cores was constantly on the limit, which resulted in nasty microfreezes..
additionally i always had a thin black line seperating the middle high res area to the peripherial lower res area, no matter what i tried to smoothen the transition from high to low res.
So i just use OpenXR

 

fwiw everyone uses openXR now, unless you specifically force steamVR.
I'll see how I get on if i turn off quad views.

[DoorMouse]

3 hours ago, Turbonix said:

@BIGNEWY Here is my feedback for the latest update:
spotting dots in Quest 3 are a bit smaller now, but still a mega conspicuous black dot in space from 2-3 nm, whereby you simply can't estimate whether it's an airplane or maybe a parachute and whether it's at a distance of 3 nm or maybe 30 nm isn´t possible to estimate either, because is´s only a black 2d dot overlay, unchangeable in size. In my opinion, this is just annoying, immersion-killing and ultimately game breaking.
I haven't even tested the spotting dots max visible range, probably still around 40-60 miles...
An additionally at longer ranges the dots still switch from dark black to shiny white in front of a cloud. 
no sry 
I'm out again 
and still happy with IL2

Tested with Quest3, resolution x1.3, DLAA

 

Its hard to replicate the resolution capabilities of a 20/20 mk1 Eyeball.  They could put aircraft models in, but scale them up slightly, or they need to make black dots which are visible at 2-3 miles.  Maybe they could greyscale the color of the aircraft depending on angle, lighting, etc.... but thats a whole bit of code to develop. 

[Tippis]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I wonder how long it will take ED to figure out that this simply won’t work because:
- If the dot is bigger than the 3D model it will look too big and hide it. 
- If the dot is smaller than the 3D model there’s no point in having it.

The reason you are wondering this is because you don't want to read the explanations why it is the only way it will work.

There are at least three more states that you are wilfully ignoring:

• If the 3D model is too big for how visibly it should be rendered at that range, the dot can replace it and be set to be appropriately visible.
• If the 3D model is too small for how visibly it should be rendered at that range, the dot can replace it and be set to be appropriately visible.
• If the 3D model is at such a low LoD that out-of-game parameters such as resolution start to affect how visible it is in-game, the dot can replace it and make it uniformly visible.

Basically, the flaw is that you incorrectly assume that the 3D model will always be the right size, and is universally rendered the same size on different hardware. The reason we have dots is because at beyond maybe 3-4nm, it isn't. Since the 3D model cannot be relied upon to show a correct and uniform size, something more controllable needs to be used. The dot is that something.