missing info Bullet proof German pilots...

[Capn kamikaze]

Pretty sure this isn't right, the other side looked almost as bad.

[razo+r]

It's just a damage texture, it doesn't reflect where the actual bullet travelled through.

[Capn kamikaze]

That's a lot of textures...

[Doughguy]

No its just one. DCS doesnt place bullet holes on exact impact spots.

What is wrong this that the "glass" wouldnt shatter like the average glass but break clean. its perspex.

[Capn kamikaze]

35 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

No its just one. DCS doesnt place bullet holes on exact impact spots.

What is wrong this that the "glass" wouldnt shatter like the average glass but break clean. its perspex.

You kind of missed my joke...

Think "T'is but a scratch" 

[NineLine]

Please supply a track and I can take a look but as stated the damage is just textures and doesn't necessarily reflect the number of hits or direction of bullets. 

[Capn kamikaze]

21 hours ago, NineLine said:

Please supply a track and I can take a look but as stated the damage is just textures and doesn't necessarily reflect the number of hits or direction of bullets. 

Didn't save a track, but from the tacview recording there's well over 100 hits the FW-190 took.

I also noticed when shooting at it that the wake turbulence from the FW-190 is rather high, it was almost flipping over my spit if I hit it, either the wake itself is too strong or the spit is very susceptable to it, I find it hard to believe that it would be like that IRL from a small piston engined fighter.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Capn kamikaze

[NineLine]

Yeah Tacview doesnt help me here, but if you get a track of either issue, send my way and I will review. Thanks

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, Capn kamikaze said:

Didn't save a track, but from the tacview recording there's well over 100 hits the FW-190 took.

I also noticed when shooting at it that the wake turbulence from the FW-190 is rather high, it was almost flipping over my spit if I hit it, either the wake itself is too strong or the spit is very susceptable to it, I find it hard to believe that it would be like that IRL from a small piston engined fighter.

 

the closer you get the stronger it becomes.

[Capn kamikaze]

1 hour ago, peachmonkey said:

the closer you get the stronger it becomes.

I would estimate range was about 200ft

[NineLine]

52 minutes ago, Capn kamikaze said:

I would estimate range was about 200ft

I'll try to reproduce and then share a vid with the boss, he probably hasn't flown close to a 190 too many times but plenty of other WWII birds. 

If you manage a track, feel free to share. 

[NineLine]

For wake turbulence I am not seeing an issue. Have to get pretty close for it to really affect the aircraft and even then I am not being thrown around.

 

[NineLine]

This vid should show you as well that the hits do not necessarily light up with the shots. As well the poor pilot is injured and slips off into the great virtual unknown. 

 

[Capn kamikaze]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

For wake turbulence I am not seeing an issue. Have to get pretty close for it to really affect the aircraft and even then I am not being thrown around.

 

That is in straight and level flight, and in another FW-190, I was in a Spitfire, also in a turning dogfight wake turbulence will be much higher as it is an effect created by creating lift, which is dependent on induced lift/load factor of the generating aircraft.

When I have time, I'll try to create a video showing it in a turn when crossing the wake, it was an almost 45 degree change in the roll of the Spit.

[NineLine]

22 hours ago, Capn kamikaze said:

That is in straight and level flight, and in another FW-190, I was in a Spitfire, also in a turning dogfight wake turbulence will be much higher as it is an effect created by creating lift, which is dependent on induced lift/load factor of the generating aircraft.

When I have time, I'll try to create a video showing it in a turn when crossing the wake, it was an almost 45 degree change in the roll of the Spit.

Well then sounds like you answered your own question though. But yes, a track of the example would be good. I fly with wake turbulence on all the time and spend a lot of time in WWII aircraft, I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary. 

[Mad_Shell]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:16 AM, NineLine said:

This vid should show you as well that the hits do not necessarily light up with the shots. As well the poor pilot is injured and slips off into the great virtual unknown. 

Uh, to me it seems to demonstrate that there is a problem with the pilot damage model.

Several of your shots were directly on the pilot, at point blank range with a 12.7mm. He should have been dead on the spot with the first direct hit.

My own test show that pilots are way too resistant to damage. For example with 25mm HE rounds aimed directly at the pilot, I need at least 2 shots to kill him. He should be dead at the 1st one.

[razo+r]

I've noticed the game does not continuously check the damage of the plane, it takes some time to initialize the BDA script. In my testing, it did it only after 27 seconds. Inbetween that time, you could shoot as much at the pilot as you want, he wouldn't die before the 27 seconds.

Example Nr. 1: 1 .50 to the head of the pilot of the A8. Only dies at exactly 27 seconds.

Pilot health A8_1.trk

Example Nr. 2: 100 .50 to the head of the pilot of the A8. Only dies at exactly 27 seconds.

Pilot health A8_2.trk

Same with P-51:

Pilot health_Mustang_2.trkPilot health_Mustang_1.trk

 

Then, I also noticed that the pilot of the Spitfire does not care about headshots. You can shot at him as much as you want, if you don't hit the body, he doesn't care.

Example: I've waited after the 27 seconds and shot multiple times at his head, no damage. Only after shooting multiple bullets at his body he dies.

Pilot health_Spitfire_4.trk

Example: 100 bullets to the head, no dead pilot.

Pilot health_Spitfire.trk

 

As for the pilot damage, here are my findings:

Test setup: HUMVEE side-on blank range, aimed at the pilot's head. Waited those 27 seconds to see the immediate effect of the bullet.

A8: 1 bullet, dead.

D9: 1 bullet, dead.

K4: 1 bullet, dead.

P-47-40: 1 bullet, dead.

Spitfire: 100 bullets, alive.

P-51-30: 1 bullet, dead.

Mosquito: 1 bullet, dead.

I-16: No pilot damage model

Edited November 16, 2023 by razo+r

[OLD CROW]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:18 PM, NineLine said:

as stated the damage is just textures and doesn't necessarily reflect the number of hits or direction of bullets.

... and nobody from inside has been wondering for years that this is odd and against any physical logic in a self suppoused "super complex" sim???? Should be time to start to address this PROBLEM, shouldn't you ED? Why don't they cut 95% visual textures if they've been demonstrated they're useless and odd and they barely match the actual damage and put more efforts in addressing the real DM and how it affects the FM in a more realistic way?  

Too much textures... too much make up useless textures, but zero core issues addressings.

[Rebel28]

A few years ago the damage model was being touted as the next big thing being worked on starting with the WW2 planes as a test then moving to the Jets. They even put up images of primary hit points that were to be used ie: fuel tanks, structural areas, ect. This project was started but soon it became clear it moved to the back burner in production. The problem is that the burner seems to have been turned OFF. For those of us here for the WW2 planes the cold hard fact is: The bread and butter is in the Jet aircraft not the prop planes. They get the attention we get the crumbs.

[peachmonkey]

6 minutes ago, Rebel28 said:

A few years ago the damage model was being touted as the next big thing being worked on starting with the WW2 planes as a test then moving to the Jets. They even put up images of primary hit points that were to be used ie: fuel tanks, structural areas, ect. This project was started but soon it became clear it moved to the back burner in production. The problem is that the burner seems to have been turned OFF. For those of us here for the WW2 planes the cold hard fact is: The bread and butter is in the Jet aircraft not the prop planes. They get the attention we get the crumbs.

it's applicable to ANY ww2 progress in DCS, not just DM.

That being said ED did progress on DM a little bit, however it's only with the Mosquito. It's the only airframe that features the visual damage that corresponds to the bullet hits (not so sure about the flack explosions though).

[Hobel]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb razo+r:

I've noticed the game does not continuously check the damage of the plane, it takes some time to initialize the BDA script. In my testing, it did it only after 27 seconds. Inbetween that time, you could shoot as much at the pilot as you want, he wouldn't die before the 27 seconds.

Example Nr. 1: 1 .50 to the head of the pilot of the A8. Only dies at exactly 27 seconds.

hm does this apply to the entire aircraft or just the pilot?

if the pilot takes a fatal shot, are these 27 seconds perhaps the "dying process" of the pilot?
that once initiated no further damage can be done?

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

hm does this apply to the entire aircraft or just the pilot?

if the pilot takes a fatal shot, are these 27 seconds perhaps the "dying process" of the pilot?
that once initiated no further damage can be done?

I have had a request in for improved pilot damage for a while now, I think it still needs some work, but they are far from bulletproof. 

[razo+r]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

hm does this apply to the entire aircraft or just the pilot?

I think it also applies to the whole aircraft. After these 27 seconds you can see the damage decals pop up on the aircraft.

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

if the pilot takes a fatal shot, are these 27 seconds perhaps the "dying process" of the pilot?

No. The pilot doesn't die faster even if you empty a magazine into him. 

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

that once initiated no further damage can be done?

In the first 27 seconds damage doesn't seem to be assessed. Shoot him once, wait until 27 seconds, BDA script comes alive, pilot dead. If you do it after the 27 seconds, the pilot dies immediately. 

[peachmonkey]

6 hours ago, razo+r said:

I think it also applies to the whole aircraft. After these 27 seconds you can see the damage decals pop up on the aircraft.

 

this must be some very specific use case. I fly A8 in MP and SP all the time. If I get hit (by ground fire or air) the damage decals appear instantaneously.  I noticed in your test you used a HUMVEE vehicle. Wasn't there a post somewhere that the modern weapons aren't exactly 'tuned' for DM of the war birds?  Can you repeat the same test with ww2 half tracks and observe similar results?

[razo+r]

6 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

this must be some very specific use case. I fly A8 in MP and SP all the time. If I get hit (by ground fire or air) the damage decals appear instantaneously. 

The usecase is for people trying to test the damage model. They might come to wrong conclusion when in reality it just takes a few seconds before damage is being considered.

And normally it takes a whole lot longer in a normal mission, be it MP or SP, before you get shot.

6 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

I noticed in your test you used a HUMVEE vehicle. Wasn't there a post somewhere that the modern weapons aren't exactly 'tuned' for DM of the war birds?  Can you repeat the same test with ww2 half tracks and observe similar results?

Modern weapons as in missiles. I have yet to hear someone saying it's not adjusted for gun ammo.

Besides, the HUMVEE and the M2A1 use the same M2 gun. I wouldn't expect any difference between them.

But for the sake of comparsion, I tried it with the A8 and Spitfire and see the same result as with the HUMVEE