Cargo operations

[YoYo]

Nice, like it! 

Pls to add paratroopers, troops transport and more cargo option and will be great!

[ANDR0ID]

From ASC / C-130J... but probably a good indicator of improvements coming to the cargo system across DCS. 

[YoYo]

On 12/9/2023 at 1:34 AM, ANDR0ID said:

From ASC / C-130J... but probably a good indicator of improvements coming to the cargo system across DCS. 

Yep! However as I know, Chinook will heve new cargo system as well.

btw. good examples: http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/Internal_Cargo/Baggage.html. Money and chickens cargo are winners. 

[corbu1]

Cool! And I thought Chicken Run was a movie.

BTW: The Chinook website is excellent. I found it years ago. And it‘s a great place for things around Chinook history.

[sirrah]

I really hope ED will include cargo drop options that give the Chinook some sort of offensive functionality (sort of like what we have with CTLD now, but integrated in DCS core)

 

For instance:

The ability to load/unload a complete artillery teams, which can be strategically placed on the battlefield.

Or (undoubtedly difficult to implement, but one can dream):

The ability to slingload a few light vehicles and some infantry teams to the front, keep those units on hold while the player is slingloading more units/teams and then, allow the player the ability to give those units some simple (attack) tasks via the F10 map.

[Silver_Dragon]

4 hours ago, sirrah said:

I really hope ED will include cargo drop options that give the Chinook some sort of offensive functionality (sort of like what we have with CTLD now, but integrated in DCS core)

 

For instance:

The ability to load/unload a complete artillery teams, which can be strategically placed on the battlefield.

Or (undoubtedly difficult to implement, but one can dream):

The ability to slingload a few light vehicles and some infantry teams to the front, keep those units on hold while the player is slingloading more units/teams and then, allow the player the ability to give those units some simple (attack) tasks via the F10 map.

From last newsletter:

Quote

DCS: CH-47F
Much of the 2023 CH-47F work focused on the creation of the external model, cockpit/cargo models as well as systems and FM. The model now accurately reflects a US Army CH-47 from the mid-2000s. Much of the work now involves the finalisation of the flight dynamics and flight control system, along with the many multi-function display pages and sub-pages. As with all DCS aircraft since the Ka-50, the CH-47 will have fully modelled electrical, hydraulic, fuel, and other systems that exist within the simulation as “live” systems to manage voltage, pressure, flow rates, temperatures and all other operational systems. To support advancements in the DCS logistical system, the CH-47F will also be equipped with cargo and sling management capabilities as well as defensive gun positions.

 

[sirrah]

4 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

From last newsletter:

 

Yes, I've read that as well. It's not saying anything though, about the player being able to give those slingloaded vehicles and/or dropped infantry squads certain orders.

Slingloading stuff around, has already been a thing in DCS for a long time now. But until now, it is very dependent on the mission designer to add all kind off triggered actions to those slingloads. Otherwise slingloading is completely useless.

 

Especially with eye on the larger MP scenarios out there (like 4YA), I wish ED would make slingloading (and in general transporting units/goods) more useful and interactive and implement that into DCS' core. Increase the usefulness of helo's/aircraft like the Huey Hip (and at some point Chinook/Hercules), and make their functionality less mission designer dependent. Pretty much what CTLD does, but maybe with a bit more interactive options, like being able to give dropped off units some basic (attack) commands.

 

I hope ED is already planning to add some of the abovementioned functionality in their cargo system overhaul and that they don't limit the improvements to moving static cargo around.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

player being able to give those slingloaded vehicles and/or dropped infantry squads certain orders.

Combined Arms can do the trick to a certain extend.

[sirrah]

51 minutes ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

Combined Arms can do the trick to a certain extend.

Not in VR.

Also, I'm thinking more about very simple commands, or maybe even one "move to/attack" command.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say (in my best English ), is that I hope ED finds a way to make transporting cargo more useful, without the need for extensive mission design editing.

 

Slingloading (and/or transporting heavy loads) on its own is fun and rewarding, but once one masters it, there isn't much use for it. 

[TheGhostOfDefi]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

Not in VR.

Also, I'm thinking more about very simple commands, or maybe even one "move to/attack" command.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say (in my best English ), is that I hope ED finds a way to make transporting cargo more useful, without the need for extensive mission design editing.

 

Slingloading (and/or transporting heavy loads) on its own is fun and rewarding, but once one masters it, there isn't much use for it. 

I think your wishes are hard to grant. Making yourself useful with slingloading will probably be a thing in the Dynamic Campaign. 
Otherwise you need a further human that takes advantage of your supplied assets. 
 

Saying “Go” but not having anything scripted is very unspecific, they need to know what you ask of them. That’s the problem i see with your wish. 
You need either thing: More detailed commands or Scripted environment.

The Dynamic Campaign for example could bypass your wishes problems by delivering a scripted environment which took you no effort to build. 
For example you delivering ammo to Howitzers and they continue fire support or delivering howitzers at all. 
 

Let’s be curious for what the future will bring us! 

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

Slingloading (and/or transporting heavy loads) on its own is fun and rewarding, but once one masters it, there isn't much use for it. 

Speaking as a player myself (I'm not a dev or part of the DCS CH-47 project); although I do see the potential for how useful such things would be in a dynamic campaign as well as a multiplayer server, I think there are elements to logistics gameplay that are overlooked in all of this.

There are many challenging conditions that can be created for CH-47 gameplay that are not reliant on directly seeing the results of your actions at the "real-time strategy" campaign level. For example, imagine that you are flying a CH-47 in the middle of the night under NVG's, banking and turning down among the trees on your way to assault an objective with a platoon of troops in the back, with three more CH-47's right behind you. You need to time your arrival perfectly so that you are touching down at the LZ right after a flight of AH-64's and A-10's begin striking targets in and around the objective.

While enroute, you encounter enemy units that the Intel section didn't know about, and you need to dart down a different valley to avoid contact and devise an alternate route to the objective. Your copilot starts rapidly punching away on the CDU to re-calculate an alternate route around the enemy forces. You hit the gas and speed up because you need to be wheels down at the LZ at a precise, pre-coordinated time. Arrive too early and the enemy forces near the objective may detect and engage you. Arrive too late and the initial surprise of the AH-64 and A-10 strikes may have subsided and an enemy counterattack is mobilized, threatening your insertion into the LZ or your egress from the area. On top of that, the detour and higher speeds is now eating into your planned fuel reserves and you may need to divert to a closer FARP on the way back. And you're doing all of this while flying under NVGs at low altitudes, trying to not hit trees or wires, reacting to RWR warnings, glancing down at your ground speed and ETA at the LZ, etc.

Anyway, that is just one example of how engaging and challenging a scenario may be outside of doubling as a ground force commander that is moving combat forces around the battlefield. I'm not saying that sort of gameplay doesn't also sound fun and interesting, but there are lots of scenarios that can be developed that can immerse the player into CH-47 operations. It just comes down to whether the gameplay of a given mission is more focused on simulating being a CH-47 pilot in itself, or being a means to bring about larger strategic effects in a large-scale environment. Both have their merits, depending on a player's preferences and interests.

[sirrah]

19 hours ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

For example you delivering ammo to Howitzers and they continue fire support or delivering howitzers at all. 

Yes, that would indeed be cool. But my wish goes a bit further than that. I'd also very much like to see being able to (re)position those Howitzer by slingloading them. So, insert them in the battlefield and they automatically start attacking enemy units within their range and LOS. (kinda like what CTLD does now with mortar teams, but then better... Because in CTLD those teams pretty much never work)

 

 

19 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Speaking as a player myself (I'm not a dev or part of the DCS CH-47 project); although I do see the potential for how useful such things would be in a dynamic campaign as well as a multiplayer server, I think there are elements to logistics gameplay that are overlooked in all of this.

There are many challenging conditions that can be created for CH-47 gameplay that are not reliant on directly seeing the results of your actions at the "real-time strategy" campaign level. For example, imagine that you are flying a CH-47 in the middle of the night under NVG's, banking and turning down among the trees on your way to assault an objective with a platoon of troops in the back, with three more CH-47's right behind you. You need to time your arrival perfectly so that you are touching down at the LZ right after a flight of AH-64's and A-10's begin striking targets in and around the objective.

While enroute, you encounter enemy units that the Intel section didn't know about, and you need to dart down a different valley to avoid contact and devise an alternate route to the objective. Your copilot starts rapidly punching away on the CDU to re-calculate an alternate route around the enemy forces. You hit the gas and speed up because you need to be wheels down at the LZ at a precise, pre-coordinated time. Arrive too early and the enemy forces near the objective may detect and engage you. Arrive too late and the initial surprise of the AH-64 and A-10 strikes may have subsided and an enemy counterattack is mobilized, threatening your insertion into the LZ or your egress from the area. On top of that, the detour and higher speeds is now eating into your planned fuel reserves and you may need to divert to a closer FARP on the way back. And you're doing all of this while flying under NVGs at low altitudes, trying to not hit trees or wires, reacting to RWR warnings, glancing down at your ground speed and ETA at the LZ, etc.

Anyway, that is just one example of how engaging and challenging a scenario may be outside of doubling as a ground force commander that is moving combat forces around the battlefield. I'm not saying that sort of gameplay doesn't also sound fun and interesting, but there are lots of scenarios that can be developed that can immerse the player into CH-47 operations. It just comes down to whether the gameplay of a given mission is more focused on simulating being a CH-47 pilot in itself, or being a means to bring about larger strategic effects in a large-scale environment. Both have their merits, depending on a player's preferences and interests.

You are right, there's lots of potentially great scenarios. My "fear" is just that it will lean highly on properly made user created content (missions).

Nothing wrong with that. There are some true mission design artists out there. But, I just think, with so many modules out now, there's a high chance that the "supply" of good user created missions will not be enough to keep us SP rotor-heads occupied for a long time.

As for MP: If you don't have the time to commit yourself to a proper team/squadron, you are dependent on the populated open servers (e.g. 4YA or any of the PVP servers). And although they try their best, there's really just no use for cargo transporters like the Huey, Hip (and soon'ish Chinook and Hercules) on those servers.

 

If ED would manage to implement some sort of "use" for cargo transporters in their core game, that would make it lean less on user created content and give us a reason to select that UH-1H or CH-47F slot in a MP mission. I know I'm being quite vague  and I'm not sure exactly how it can be done. Maybe the only answer is; wait for the Dynamic Campaign.

 

I guess (although it's nice to try and avoid having cargo crates tip over), as a big fan of helo ops, I hope to see more useful transport functionality, than just realistic cargo physics inside cargo holds.

 

But, as @TheGhostOfDefi already said, let's wait and see  

Edited January 8, 2024 by sirrah

[Bedouin]

19 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Speaking as a player myself (I'm not a dev or part of the DCS CH-47 project); although I do see the potential for how useful such things would be in a dynamic campaign as well as a multiplayer server, I think there are elements to logistics gameplay that are overlooked in all of this.

There are many challenging conditions that can be created for CH-47 gameplay that are not reliant on directly seeing the results of your actions at the "real-time strategy" campaign level. For example, imagine that you are flying a CH-47 in the middle of the night under NVG's, banking and turning down among the trees on your way to assault an objective with a platoon of troops in the back, with three more CH-47's right behind you. You need to time your arrival perfectly so that you are touching down at the LZ right after a flight of AH-64's and A-10's begin striking targets in and around the objective.

While enroute, you encounter enemy units that the Intel section didn't know about, and you need to dart down a different valley to avoid contact and devise an alternate route to the objective. Your copilot starts rapidly punching away on the CDU to re-calculate an alternate route around the enemy forces. You hit the gas and speed up because you need to be wheels down at the LZ at a precise, pre-coordinated time. Arrive too early and the enemy forces near the objective may detect and engage you. Arrive too late and the initial surprise of the AH-64 and A-10 strikes may have subsided and an enemy counterattack is mobilized, threatening your insertion into the LZ or your egress from the area. On top of that, the detour and higher speeds is now eating into your planned fuel reserves and you may need to divert to a closer FARP on the way back. And you're doing all of this while flying under NVGs at low altitudes, trying to not hit trees or wires, reacting to RWR warnings, glancing down at your ground speed and ETA at the LZ, etc.

Anyway, that is just one example of how engaging and challenging a scenario may be outside of doubling as a ground force commander that is moving combat forces around the battlefield. I'm not saying that sort of gameplay doesn't also sound fun and interesting, but there are lots of scenarios that can be developed that can immerse the player into CH-47 operations. It just comes down to whether the gameplay of a given mission is more focused on simulating being a CH-47 pilot in itself, or being a means to bring about larger strategic effects in a large-scale environment. Both have their merits, depending on a player's preferences and interests.

And of course the CSAR mission types with Apache cover - another really cool aspect.

[YoYo]

I hope that the topic will be refined well from the very beginning and as it should be.

The CH-47 without new cargo options is like a toothless bull terrier, which is what the helicopter is intended for.

Unfortunately, I still don't see anything new when it comes to cargo. We already have this in DCS and it is not new:  (come on guys!)

Im still wiating for news about it:

This is new only (if he can leave the copter):

Edited April 22, 2024 by YoYo

[Silver_Dragon]

Someone need remember with C-130J Airplane Simulator Company has talked with cargo operations has ongoing with ED help, and none exclusive from your module. Claims about "where are my features" not go to show them quicky.

[lee1hy]

I don't think ED will make this in 2 months. Even if they do, it will be buggy and unstable. won't be able to land on the sea and get off the UDT BOAT.

[felixx75]

1 hour ago, lee1hy said:

I don't think ED will make this in 2 months. Even if they do, it will be buggy and unstable. won't be able to land on the sea and get off the UDT BOAT.

This statement is only good for saying "I told you so".

This negativity does no one any good.

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, lee1hy said:

I don't think ED will make this in 2 months. Even if they do, it will be buggy and unstable. won't be able to land on the sea and get off the UDT BOAT.

You should probably wait till after Early Access to buy this then. No during EA it will not have all the features, yes it will have some bugs ( and we appreciate those that buy in early and help identify those) and not all new features will come right away. For example landing on water is a new thing for DCS and will take time to do and get right. Kind regards.