FCR Limitations?

[TZeer]

Looking for info on the limitations of the FCR.

Like minimum altitude, angles etc?

 

Reason I ask is that I was testing out a low level attack, coming in at roughly 20 feet AGL on a SA-8. This SA-8 was situated in the middle of a large flat area in the desert. I as a pilot had LOS on this on my way in. But to my surprise, I was not able to get it on my scan. In the end I had to change to George and have him go guns on it.

After I had killed it, I made some distance, climbed and turned around. This time I got it on my scan.

I would have thought that the FCR would pick up the SA-8, when I as a pilot had LOS on it, and the radar is situated higher up. But maybe there was some limitations I was operating within?

Edited December 20, 2023 by TZeer

[NeedzWD40]

Currently, there seems to be an extreme downward bias for target detection. I was just doing some testing and a target on a hillside above the aircraft was extremely hard to detect until I was flying above it. Manually adjusting the elevation didn't seem to help much, though closer in I was able to get it one notch above at 1.5km. On the other hand, looking down at targets from a ridgeline to an area down below about 200ft and I was able to pick up many targets rapidly with ease, even those in defilade. In both cases I was close to the ground under 15ft, so it's all about relative target elevation.

However, something else to keep in mind: if your sight is the FCR, then as a pilot it will try to follow your current acquisition source, which can make it possible for the FCR to be looking away from your target. If you want it to scan an area you're looking at, set your acquisition source to PHS and run your scan. Alternatively, fixed will keep the scan zone centered on the centerline. Until a scanburst is done, it will focus on the commanded heading at time of scan. CPG can do the same, but must use the slave function to bind to the current acquisition source.

Edited December 21, 2023 by NeedzWD40

[Floyd1212]

21 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

On the other hand, looking down at targets from a ridgeline to an area down below about 200ft and I was able to pick up many targets rapidly with ease, even those in defilade.

Interesting.  I was not able to pick up any of these static groups (which are within 6km) from up here.

[NeedzWD40]

30 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Interesting.  I was not able to pick up any of these static groups (which are within 6km) from up here.

I'm actually wondering if map may have an impact as well, as my testing was done on Syria whilst looking into a separate issue. What was the height difference for you? Did you try any of the manual elevation settings?

[Kip336]

I did some testing on the Syria Live Firing range with the FCR. The FCR was not picking up all the targets on the firing range hill no matter my position or altitude , I also had to adjust elevation a few times to get more then 4-5 targets scanned in one go. 

[simo-dj]

Didn't both Wags and Bignewy mentioned that the FCR, at the moment, is implemented only for ground moving targets?

As you i did some testings with fcr , as cp/g, at day1 of the patch in South Atlantic (more precisely took off from Goose Green). I put a SAM site (2 launchers, an atc, a C2 and some supporting unarmed trucks) 18 km away and flew to them, but FCR didn't spot anything.

Re-did the same test with all the units moving and FCR spotted the 2 more dangerous units that were wipe away with 2 precise shot of radar hellfires. "Problem" is that when 2 sams were taken away all the remaing units stopped and the radar dome wasn't able to spot them.

To be completely honest fcr spotted only and only this 2 launchers.

Forgive me if this not helping. I thought that that was the problem. I did this very quickly and didn't fly in quite a while so i haven't a track to show this behaviour.

Thanks everybody and have a great Christmas!

 

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all,

GMT is in and can be used, but also bear in mind the FCR is not a magic all seeing eye, it can be masked by terrain or buildings for example.

You may also be in situations where you need to manually adjust the scan elevation to see targets. 

thank you

[TZeer]

Did some more test's and it seems to be some bugs. Will post track and make a separate bug report.

But anyway:

- Only got 4 out of 6 targets on my FCR. Roughly 2 km at my nose. In Hover.

- Tried changing elevation manually on FCR, no change. Went to fixed mode and suddenly got 1 more target at my scope. Went back to previous mode, and target still there.

- Raised my altitude to about 80 feet. Suddenly one of the targets changed position on the TSD to far right. But LOS was straight infront of me.

- Also had serious problems picking up targets on a flat desert. In my test track I'll put on the bug report page, I had no targets on my FCR until I was less than 1,5 km away from them.

Edited December 21, 2023 by TZeer

[Hoirtel]

11 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Interesting.  I was not able to pick up any of these static groups (which are within 6km) from up here.

I got the FCR to pick up static units in training mission. Tanks, BMPs, scud launchers, trucks and technicals. Very efficient. 

[admiki]

One thing I realized today is that radar HFs are not the best tool for targets that are higher than you. 

They loft a bit, but depending on height difference, they almost undershoot.

Best solution is SAL HFs in LOAL HI mode.

[BIGNEWY]

please include short track replay examples when you think you are seeing issues

thanks

[Moxica]

I just don't understand how the FCR can lock target, but the missiles goes all over the place.
Yes, I realigned INU, but still it looked like some fireworks factory on fire.
Only the two first missiles hit.
Then "Pew pew",  randomly far off to the left.
There is nothing there. Never was.
What are they going for?
How do they get assigned to those empty spots?

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Moxica said:

I just don't understand how the FCR can lock target, but the missiles goes all over the place.
Yes, I realigned INU, but still it looked like some fireworks factory on fire.
Only the two first missiles hit.
Then "Pew pew",  randomly far off to the left.
There is nothing there. Never was.
What are they going for?
How do they get assigned to those empty spots?

The FCR basically creates a snap shot of the battle field it has scanned, if that picture changes you need to rescan be before engaging again.

Add a short track replay example and we will take a look, its working correctly for us when we test. 

[Grennymaster]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Moxica:

I just don't understand how the FCR can lock target, but the missiles goes all over the place.
Yes, I realigned INU, but still it looked like some fireworks factory on fire.
Only the two first missiles hit.
Then "Pew pew",  randomly far off to the left.
There is nothing there. Never was.
What are they going for?
How do they get assigned to those empty spots?

the Lima still uses its own Radar. It is not guidet be the FCR. so if there is clutter that "confuses" the Radar seeker of the HF, it will still go around the block i did a few runs yesterday. my first 2 L HF misses the only target by 20m i get to another position an then hit dead center.

Mabye that helps out a bit. Not to say that it must be the issiue

 

[BIGNEWY]

Its also worth noting if you move your position, or take a long time between shots you should rescan the battlefield again. 

[Moxica]

7 minutes ago, Grennymaster said:

the Lima still uses its own Radar. It is not guidet be the FCR. so if there is clutter that "confuses" the Radar seeker of the HF, it will still go around the block i did a few runs yesterday. my first 2 L HF misses the only target by 20m i get to another position an then hit dead center.

Mabye that helps out a bit. Not to say that it must be the issiue

 

Whaddya mean "clutter"? They are going for "clutter" now"    
They are way more picky/precise when lazer designated, and I have never seen them go for tank carcases like that before. Even less to just empty field spots.
They be like "F*ck this spot in particular"   
Thank you for responding, Grennymaster!

4 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Its also worth noting if you move your position, or take a long time between shots you should rescan the battlefield again. 

Thx, Bignewy!

I figure, but I'm hesitant, because then FCR will reassign AND prioritize the old kills. I've been pounding "dead" tanks a lot that way. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Moxica

[Hobel]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Moxica:

I just don't understand how the FCR can lock target, but the missiles goes all over the place.
Yes, I realigned INU, but still it looked like some fireworks factory on fire.
Only the two first missiles hit.
Then "Pew pew",  randomly far off to the left.
There is nothing there. Never was.
What are they going for?
How do they get assigned to those empty spots?

the best thing is always to send a track for things that are unclear, people can give you tips to improve the situation, but what exactly was the problem in your scenario we can't judge

[ruiner_]

Quote

They are way more picky/precise when lazer designated, and I have never seen them go for tank carcases like that before. Even less to just empty field spots.

I've only seen them do that when the FCR doesn't have LOS on the targets that are still alive. I've seen this a few times and either raising up or repositioning solved it.  

[Moxica]

Tied to replicate. One of the missiles goes haywire, most of the rest goes for the tank it seems:

 

FCR.trk

[Floyd1212]

If you scan and get a return with targets, then launch a few missiles and they get the X on them to indicate they were shot at, does doing a new scan remove the X and allow you to shoot them again?  I feel like the X stays there and they will be skipped over when prioritized.  I will have to pay more attention.

[Floyd1212]

Something weird going on with the track replays.

I watched your track the first time a regular speed and you fired 3 shots, and got 3 kills/criticals, all in the same area.

Then I went back and watched it again, and took this screenshot to show none of your missiles were "going haywire", but it only gave you 1 kill in the BDA.

So then I watched it again, and this time your missiles arced off to the left, and you again got 3 kills/criticals.

Not sure what's going on anymore.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Floyd1212

[Raptor9]

The X symbols only represent the estimated location of where the missile was fired to. This is the case when you fire a SAL missile using the TADS as well. The X symbols have no bearing on the FCR targeting process because neither the aircraft or any of the onboard sensors know where those missiles go after launch, whether the missiles hit the intended target near the X, or if the target is still functioning or destroyed, etc.

The X symbols represent the locations at which missiles have been shot, no more no less. For all the radar knows, the missile could have missed, and the original tank drove away into the treeline and a other tank drove to the same location. When you perform another scan, the FCR is only telling the pilot what it sees in the latest scan, and puts the current FCR target icons over top of the X symbols (although you can see them). It is up to the pilot to exercise the appropriate judgement and prudence to determine how to use the information the FCR is providing.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Before FCR was available, the L would get "data" from manual lasing first. Then we fire it and the L flies a curve leftwards or rightwards depending on pylon (I presume for the L to get a better radar return since it uses its own radar?) and then hits/misses depending on ground clutter. With the FCR 'photo' scan of the targets, does the NTS and ANTS now feed "data" to the Ls for firing? 

[thekow]

Not sure if this is the right place for this question but with the FCR after the targets are destroyed and you rescan the target priority still stays the highest on the dead targets, is this normal or a bug? Even if you fly away and scan again the dead targets are the highest priority.

[NeedzWD40]

15 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

With the FCR 'photo' scan of the targets, does the NTS and ANTS now feed "data" to the Ls for firing? 

Sort of. A better way to describe it is the FCR is another sensor that provides data that the weapons processor can use, which in turn hands it over to the missile(s). The FCR "collects" the information for multiple targets and has the "message" ready for each target, whereas TADS has to form it each time.

5 minutes ago, thekow said:

Not sure if this is the right place for this question but with the FCR after the targets are destroyed and you rescan the target priority still stays the highest on the dead targets, is this normal or a bug? Even if you fly away and scan again the dead targets are the highest priority.

This is correct behavior. The FCR can't separate a dead hunk of metal from a live one. Use the SHOT cues to determine if a target is dead or worthy of another tap, then use PFZs and NFZs for further filtering.