correct as-is CAT I/III Question

[SpecterDC13]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:03 AM, skywalker22 said:

No, you said if TGP and/or HTS pods are installed, the plane should be in CAT III, right? Which is not.

Yes, the TGP and HTS are both considered CAT III stores.  Here we go again.

17 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Two wing tanks should be CAT I, but based on @SpecterDC13 words, which bases on RL experience & knowledge, TGP should be CAT III (currently is still CAT I, as I said my last post).

 

The jet does not know what is installed on stations 5L and 5R.  Therefore it is the pilots' responsibility to know what is loaded and to ensure that he stays in the correct CAT.  If he has the TGP or HTS pods he is still CAT III. Even after you release stores off of stations 3 and 7 and you get the caution light you should ignore it and stay in CAT III.  Remember the jet does not know that you have stores on 5L and 5R.

 

22 hours ago, Nealius said:

I've been flying a lot of Viper recently and the DCS behavior does not follow this. The three points not reflected in DCS colored in red text. After dropping A/G ordnance the system advises me to go CATI despite having two wing tanks and the TGP.

Please refer to my other comments in this forum. 

 

13 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

That's a question for @SpecterDC13, I'm sure he will have a reasonable answer. Why would he then claim that TGP/HTS pods are automatically CAT III. There must be an answer to that.

Per the -2 TGPs and pods are CATIII regardless of other stores.

[SickSidewinder9]

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart in the wrong stores cat in DCS?

 

And you just have to keep resetting the master caution when you have just TGP and jet wants cat 1?  Does the Sniper handle Cat1?  I still don't understand if it has more to do with CG or total weight.  Both?  G-load of the stores/hardpoint combos?

 

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

Edited January 22, 2024 by SickSidewinder9

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

4 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart in the wrong stores cat in DCS?

 

And you just have to keep resetting the master caution when you have just TGP and jet wants cat 1?  Does the Sniper handle Cat1?  I still don't understand if it has more to do with CG or total weight.  Both?  G-load of the stores/hardpoint combos?

 

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

 

My guess is the intake attaching points aren´t wired for those checks, simple as that.
The very same not every item for the inventory works on every station.

[Falconeer]

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

No

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Wing tanks are Cat III

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart 

Yes

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

That's what the stores config switch does, depending on the load

Edited January 22, 2024 by Falconeer

[Nealius]

At this point my thinking is "ignore the stores config advisory entirely and set the config switch as per -2." Which makes me question why the stores config advisory even exists if it disagrees with actual loading so often. 

Edited January 23, 2024 by Nealius

[SickSidewinder9]

21 hours ago, Falconeer said:

No

Wing tanks are Cat III

Yes

That's what the stores config switch does, depending on the load

 

Thanks!

 

17 hours ago, Nealius said:

At this point my thinking is "ignore the stores config advisory entirely and set the config switch as per -2." Which makes me question why the stores config advisory even exists if it disagrees with actual loading so often. 

 

Well, the plane was designed in the 70's and has changed a bit since then.

[Nealius]

7 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Well, the plane was designed in the 70's and has changed a bit since then.

That was my assumption for the background behind the advisory confusion, but the Hornet was designed in the same time frame, has also changed a bit since then, but has clearer and more consistent advisories in my opinion. Of course this is limited to DCS experience.

[SickSidewinder9]

17 hours ago, Nealius said:

That was my assumption for the background behind the advisory confusion, but the Hornet was designed in the same time frame, has also changed a bit since then, but has clearer and more consistent advisories in my opinion. Of course this is limited to DCS experience.

The YF-17 was designed in the 70's but the avionics/flcs (among other things) are a around decade newer, iirc, which is an enormous leap in computing power.  Also, it does seem like things like damage and advisories are much more complete in the Hornet module than the Viper module.  There's an entire advisory display in the Viper that is basically non-functional.  It will show a FLCS BIT failure now, I think if you cut off the FLCS BIT.  That's it.

Edited January 24, 2024 by SickSidewinder9

[MeanJim]

I've been wondering about this but I keep forgetting to look into it, but today I finally looked into it.  I noticed that when I have two wing tanks and an A-G load-out, when I drop the ordnance, I get the stores config caution, but with an A-A load-out and two wing tanks, it wants me in CAT-III, even later when they run dry.

After reading through the topic, it's mentioned that the stores config does not limit the Gs the aircraft can pull.  I remembered watching a video of an F-16 doing BFM a while back and the pilot mentioning having a G limit until below a certain weight.  I assumed he was referring to the stores config.  I managed to find the video, and at 6:40 the pilot mentions being limited to 7 Gs with two external tanks or risking over G-ing the jet, but he says it's something he has to watch out for.  Later at 9:30 he says he has 400 lbs. to go until he can pull unrestricted Gs.

It looks like damage from incorrect stores config and over-G isn't modeled in the DCS F-16 at all.  I just tested it out with two external tanks, two Mk-84s and four AIM-120s.  I put the stores switch to CAT-I and no matter how abused the flight controls, even managing to pull 11Gs, and nothing broke.

I've always switched to CAT-I when I get the caution, so if I want to be realistic I should stay on CAT-III with TGP, HTS, AIM-120s, and asymmetric load outs.  Who am I kidding, until ED implements damage to these systems or structural damage from improper stores config, I'll probably just keep doing what I've been doing.

On 1/11/2024 at 2:43 AM, SpecterDC13 said:

@Gregkar Throw 120s on and boom CAT III.

What makes the AIM-120 limited to CAT-III?  Is there a source for that?  If true, DCS has it wrong.  Loading 6x AIM-120 has you in CAT-1 by default.

[Spartan111sqn]

what has no sense is

loadout with 2x120, 2xaim9, 2xtanks --> CAT I

loadout with 4x120, 2xaim9, 2xtanks --> CAT III, and after 2 aim120 are fired the system doesn't ask you to switch to CAT I

 

So as it is the system doesn't look reliable in DCS.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all,

in the next version of the DCS F-16C Early Access Guide to explain the CAT switch logic.

thank you 

 

[Spartan111sqn]

6 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all,

in the next version of the DCS F-16C Early Access Guide to explain the CAT switch logic.

thank you 

 

Thanks a lot, CAT logic will evolve according to the weight changes in the aircraft?, for example fuel consumption or missiles fired?

Thanks

[MeanJim]

12 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

in the next version of the DCS F-16C Early Access Guide to explain the CAT switch logic.

thank you 

Awesome, but that still leaves some questions about the stores config caution light.  I don't know if you found public sources for what some have said.  It was mentioned that the stores config caution warning is basically and advisory and it's up to the pilot to know what is still loaded and put it in the correct position.  For example the stores config caution will be triggered when dropping A-G ordnance from stations 2 and 7 when you have wing tanks loaded, but you still may be loaded in a way that requires a CAT-III config.  This is how it is working in DCS now, but I didn't know that I was incorrect by placing the switch in CAT-1 to clear the warning.

I'm also still curious as to why the AIM-120 is a CAT-III store.  Is it the weight of the missile that can damage the aircraft, or can the missile be damaged?  Although, unless you implement damage to the weapons or aircraft from flying in an incorrect stores config, people in PvP servers are just going to throw it in CAT-1 and not worry about it.

[Spartan111sqn]

7 hours ago, MeanJim said:

Awesome, but that still leaves some questions about the stores config caution light.  I don't know if you found public sources for what some have said.  It was mentioned that the stores config caution warning is basically and advisory and it's up to the pilot to know what is still loaded and put it in the correct position.  For example the stores config caution will be triggered when dropping A-G ordnance from stations 2 and 7 when you have wing tanks loaded, but you still may be loaded in a way that requires a CAT-III config.  This is how it is working in DCS now, but I didn't know that I was incorrect by placing the switch in CAT-1 to clear the warning.

I'm also still curious as to why the AIM-120 is a CAT-III store.  Is it the weight of the missile that can damage the aircraft, or can the missile be damaged?  Although, unless you implement damage to the weapons or aircraft from flying in an incorrect stores config, people in PvP servers are just going to throw it in CAT-1 and not worry about it.

Because up to now the aircraft doesn't break, it should break some systems or get some damages when overstressing it

21 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said:

what has no sense is

loadout with 2x120, 2xaim9, 2xtanks --> CAT I

loadout with 4x120, 2xaim9, 2xtanks --> CAT III, and after 2 aim120 are fired the system doesn't ask you to switch to CAT I

 

So as it is the system doesn't look reliable in DCS.

Also @BIGNEWY have a look at it, easy to reproduce.