correct as-is CAT I/III Question

[Gregkar]

So, if i understand correctly, the stores config behaviour in DCS is correct. IRL aircraft gives a stores config warning light under the same circumstances as in DCS and the pilots are just ingoring them.

And basically it goes like this:
Centerline tank & no A/G weapons BUT with any A/A weapons loaded = CAT I
TGP or/and HTS = CAT III no matter what else is loaded
ECM on centerline= CAT I unless A/G weapons or TGP/HTS loaded, then-> CAT III
2x 370gal drop tanks= CAT III no matter what else is loaded
ANY A/G weapon= CAT III no matter what else is loaded

 

[Furiz]

Atm in DCS if you have loaded HTS + TGP and ECM and you are in CAT III it will give you warning and switching to CAT I clears it with 2 bags also.

[SickSidewinder9]

Where are you guys getting that TGP should be cat3 no matter what?  That seems wrong.  Again, stores cat and G limit are 2 separate things.

[SpecterDC13]

10 hours ago, Furiz said:

Atm in DCS if you have loaded HTS + TGP and ECM and you are in CAT III it will give you warning and switching to CAT I clears it with 2 bags also.

@Furizit gives you the warning when you have the TGP and HTS loaded because it does not recognize them as stores in the SMS memory.  Ignore the warning in that case and stay in CATIII.  I also clarified that ECM by itself on the centerline is CAT I.  It turns CATIII when loaded onto a wing station.  

@Gregkar2x tanks with 6x 9s can be CAT I.  The minute you throw 120s on then it will be CATIII since the 120s we have are the C5s. Also keep in mind that if you start with an A2A loadout and end up being asymetric later in the flight (i.e. 2x msls on left wing and 3x on the right or 1x and 3x) that is a CAT III condition. 

 

4 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Where are you guys getting that TGP should be cat3 no matter what?  That seems wrong.  Again, stores cat and G limit are 2 separate things.

@SickSidewinder9Where are you getting your info that it isn't?? Not once did anyone say that CAT deals with Gs.  The CAT switch limits AoA it does not limit G.  You can still hit 9Gs in CATIII if you are meeting the right conditions.  The CAT limits the AoA you can pull which should make it harder to hit that 9Gs in normal conditions (meaning you are within the envelope).  Especially when we get the Sniper that is CATIII all day long.  

[Wizard_03]

21 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

ECM pods on the centerline is CAT I. They go CAT III when loaded onto the wing stations. 

Centerline tanks are also CAT I.  However, if you do 3x tanks that is a CAT III. So for instance if you do 2x or 6x 9s and three tanks that is a CATIII configuration. 

TGPs and HTS pods are instant CAT III no matter what. 

But you will or should get a stores config caution with certain A2A loadouts as it is a reminder that if you shoot one off the rail on either side you are now asymetric which is a CAT III condition.

Again, this goes with what I was saying about how it is the pilot's job to ensure he/she is in the correct CAT option as during flight your conditions can change. So know what is on your jet and you will be ok.

Now that makes perfect sense. Also Didn't consider asymmetrical loads from missile firing. 

[Falconeer]

21 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

@Falconeerwhat do you do? I am weapons at Nellis on the 16. 

Fellow weapons here

[SpecterDC13]

39 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

Fellow weapons here

Wpns are the best. 

[SpecterDC13]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Should our Block 50 recognize whats on stations 5L and 5R?

No it should not.  As far as I am aware all blocks of the F16 that the USAF has and does fly (including the ones I work on) do not recognize what is on those stations.

You gotta remember irl all missions are planned and jets are configured a certain way well in advance so the pilots know exactly what they are going to be flying with.

If I get into a mission that someone else made I just pop into F2 real quick and if i cant do that I just check the switches for the left and right hardpoint stations.  Typically if there is something on those stations then the switches will automatically be flipper on a hot start.  If it is a cold start then turn them on and see if those pages turn on. If they dont turn on then you dont have anything loaded there. 

[Gregkar]

9 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

 

@Gregkar2x tanks with 6x 9s can be CAT I.  The minute you throw 120s on then it will be CATIII since the 120s we have are the C5s. Also keep in mind that if you start with an A2A loadout and end up being asymetric later in the flight (i.e. 2x msls on left wing and 3x on the right or 1x and 3x) that is a CAT III condition. 

 

oh, ok... interesting, i always thought that 2x external tanks are instant CATIII... 

[SpecterDC13]

@GregkarNope, they are not.  Just remember 6x 9s good to go.  Throw 120s on and boom CAT III.  I think we all just think they are because most of the time they are paired with A2G munitions and the TGP and HTS pod.  

[BIGNEWY]

If you have unrestricted public evidence please PM me. But please note we can only use public information, which is what our current implementation is based on. 

[SpecterDC13]

@BIGNEWYSo far it seems to be correct as is.  Right? 

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, SpecterDC13 said:

@BIGNEWYSo far it seems to be correct as is.  Right? 

We have implemented based on the public evidence we have, if someone has conflicting public information we are happy to take a look. 

thanks

 

[SpecterDC13]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

We have implemented based on the public evidence we have, if someone has conflicting public information we are happy to take a look. 

thanks

 

Yes I get that.  I'm just saying from what I know it seems to be good as is and is acting as expected.  If anything I am shocked that this got implemented and doesnt seem to be bugged lol

[Furiz]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:57 PM, SpecterDC13 said:

@Furizit gives you the warning when you have the TGP and HTS loaded because it does not recognize them as stores in the SMS memory.  Ignore the warning in that case and stay in CATIII.  I also clarified that ECM by itself on the centerline is CAT I.  It turns CATIII when loaded onto a wing station.  

Alright, after I dropped my bombs I also had 2 wing tanks 3 x aim120s and aim9, so I thought it would be CAT III with those, but it gave me warning while my plane was in CAT III configuration.

what about the warning panel light, should it go off when the error is acknowledged?

Edited January 12, 2024 by Furiz

[SpecterDC13]

48 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Alright, after I dropped my bombs I also had 2 wing tanks 3 x aim120s and aim9, so I thought it would be CAT III with those, but it gave me warning while my plane was in CAT III configuration.

what about the warning panel light, should it go off when the error is acknowledged?

 

Yes, you will get that warning once anything comes off of sta 3 and 7 when wing weapon pylons are installed.  Even when you press Master Caution the caution will stay there. 

Pressing Master Caution is the same as pressing F-Ack (once implemented for PFLD) you are just acknowledging the warning and you have to do certain things to clear it.  Same as when you get any other warning like fuel cautions or Equip Hot, they go away once corrected.  

But yes, you are still CAT III with those 120s and tanks. And definitely CAT III if you had your TGP/HTS.  Refer back to my earlier posts here about ignoring it. 

[Falconeer]

10 hours ago, Furiz said:

Alright, after I dropped my bombs I also had 2 wing tanks 3 x aim120s and aim9, so I thought it would be CAT III with those, but it gave me warning while my plane was in CAT III configuration.

what about the warning panel light, should it go off when the error is acknowledged?

 

You can just flip the Cat I/III switch and the error should clear.

Technically speaking, it's not a fault, but an advisory

 

[SpecterDC13]

Yeah pretty much what Falconeer said.  But again, just remember what is loaded to your jet and ignore as needed.  Most situations you can just ignore it.  And honestly until ED implements more effects in terms of G loads on equipment you should be alright either way.  Ive flown with guys that have never flown in CAT III and have pulled more than enough Gs with certain configurations.  But if you want the realism and immersion then you know what to do. 

[SickSidewinder9]

Interesting.  All very interesting.  And yes, it's all a bit moot until we get proper over G damage modeling (among all the other damage modeling).  So, does the Cat switch have more to do with total weight than CG?

Edited January 15, 2024 by SickSidewinder9

[skywalker22]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:26 PM, SpecterDC13 said:

@BIGNEWYSo far it seems to be correct as is.  Right? 

No, you said if TGP and/or HTS pods are installed, the plane should be in CAT III, right? Which is not.

[skywalker22]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

I've been flying a lot of Viper recently and the DCS behavior does not follow this. The three points not reflected in DCS colored in red text. After dropping A/G ordnance the system advises me to go CATI despite having two wing tanks and the TGP.

Two wing tanks should be CAT I, but based on @SpecterDC13 words, which bases on RL experience & knowledge, TGP should be CAT III (currently is still CAT I, as I said my last post).

[Furiz]

It makes sense that sensitive electronics should be CAT III.

But SMS page doesnt have cheek stations as far as I know so the jet doesnt know if it has TGP/HTS loaded.

So when ag weapons are dropped stores warning is given cause the jet thinks CAT I should be used.

 

As far as I know, in real life pilots have G force limits when TGP or HTS is loaded, and they dont go over those limits or they can damage the jet or electronics. Same goes with AG weapons. 

CAT I or III are AOE limiters as far as I understand. We can still pull 9G in any configuration. But in DCS there is no damage to electronics.

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Two wing tanks should be CAT I

Wing tanks are CAT III. There should be documentation explaining all of this in the -2, but I can't find a freely available copy of it.

[Falconeer]

11 hours ago, Nealius said:

Wing tanks are CAT III. There should be documentation explaining all of this in the -2, but I can't find a freely available copy of it.

Correct and that's also an issue that a lot of this stuff is not described in the public documents

 

 

If you are going to slap big heavy stuff onto the plane, things are changing to the flight caracteristics and need to be within certain boundries. That why the switch is there to prevent certain movements of the aircraft, so the FCLS doesn't lose control.

Remember that the F-16 cannot fly without computers, because it has a very unstable design (hence it's maneuverability) 

The CAT I / III switch doesn't limit how much G's you can pull directly, but it limits AoA and roll, which in terms affects how many G's you can pull at a certain speed. In Cat III, you can still hit 9 G's, but you need a higher speed to do so.

You can test it by loading the jet up with bombs and wing tanks and start a steep climb. Put the switch in Cat I and start a roll and pull on the stick to command max AoA and you'll most likely loose control of the aircraft. Now try the same again with the switch in Cat III and the system will project you from loosing control (departing controlled flight is the correct term)

Edited January 21, 2024 by Falconeer

[Falconeer]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:27 AM, skywalker22 said:

Should our Block 50 recognize whats on stations 5L and 5R?

If nothing else, it would be good if it would, sometimes I have missions where your only view is from the cockpit, and thats why you don't know what is there on these 2 stations (online pre-planed missions).

The aircraft does not "know" what is mounted to the chin stations. All other stations are programmed manually by the SMS page or via the DTC