correct as-is SAM Threat Rings Unreliable

[Prime]

This is an SA-6 ring it is 13.5 miles it launched at me at 20 miles. I have searched DCS threat guides they say the WEZ is 19.2nm. Have the circles always been wrong?

I have not tried the other SAMs but the SA-6 ring is not correct.null

Edited March 20, 2024 by Prime

[okopanja]

One side note: the implemented DCS KUB is not too accurate itself. IRL the terminal guidance can also be command guidance with no radar illumination. Combined with TV/IR used on KUB, it may even launch and guide with no warning. In addition KUB launcher can be slaved to BUK launcher, which also is not implemented in DCS (was a feature from the birth of BUK).

 

[Trigati]

I would guess that as you were flying direct at it the AI assumed you would be meeting the missile well within the effective zone ( if you didn’t manoeuvre you would be reducing the range/flight distance of the shot) so tried for an optimistic one in a million lucky shot.

Might even be realistic if their goal was to stop you getting closer to something valuable and deter you from progressing. A deterrent rather than an expected kill shot.


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[Prime]

Might be a just less than ideal SAM AI shooting with a Pk of .1

1 hour ago, Trigati said:

I would guess that as you were flying direct at it the AI assumed you would be meeting the missile well within the effective zone ( if you didn’t manoeuvre you would be reducing the range/flight distance of the shot) so tried for an optimistic one in a million lucky shot.

Might even be realistic if their goal was to stop you getting closer to something valuable and deter you from progressing. A deterrent rather than an expected kill shot.


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Why not wait till Pk is higher but lock on while getting closer and once fired Pk would be much closer to 1

[_SteelFalcon_]

they shoot at you when you are outside max range if you fly straight at the SAM, as it'll intercept you pretty close to max range, inside the ring.
Notice how they barely shoot if you fly at an angle to them, you can even fly through the ring without being shot with the right angle

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, Prime said:

SA-6 ring

A threat ring is never really a "ring" in the first place: it's more like an ellipse/cone and indeed it depends on your angle: pointed directly at the SAM launcher or more perpendicular.
It is in fact very dynamic, depending on your airspeed, angle-off, altitude difference between yourself and the launcher and your RCS (not just your aircraft but also the external loads you’re hauling), so as long as all those factors do not contribute to the calculation of the threat "ring" it will always be a vague approximation: use your own experience/judgement instead.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[falcon_120]

Yeah, rings are not very meaningful without context, in this case altitude. The ring is a good approximation as long as you fly towards the SAM, but launch range increase dramatically with altitude (and other factor described by previous posters).

A SA11 that will happily launch at you at 22nm if you are ate 30k will wait until 10/12ish if you are flying at 5000ft.

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[Prime]

I guess this just boils down to less than ideal SAM Logic

[falcon_120]

Yes, but in my experience the rings are quite right for modern SAMS like SA11/SA10 when going high. If you dont enter that ring you are good, and even if shot at a slight turn will defeat the missiles, so its lets you know a pretty decent “safe zone”


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[Raptor9]

Air defense engagement zones are never perfectly sized cylinders. Even winds aloft at higher altitudes can affect a missile's kinematic performance, not to mention the other factors mentioned here.

The point is that the SAM rings on the HSD are only a rough estimate of danger based on pre-mission intel, rather than a binary state of "safe" or "not safe". Understanding the nature of the threat system capabilities and how they function is much more critical in determining the degree of the danger a threat poses at any given moment.

[Prime]

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Air defense engagement zones are never perfectly sized cylinders. Even winds aloft at higher altitudes can affect a missile's kinematic performance, not to mention the other factors mentioned here.

The point is that the SAM rings on the HSD are only a rough estimate of danger based on pre-mission intel, rather than a binary state of "safe" or "not safe". Understanding the nature of the threat system capabilities and how they function is much more critical in determining the degree of the danger a threat poses at any given moment.

So why use 13.5nm for the circle size instead of the 19.2nm WEZ like in the community had to make because one is not provided? 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Prime

[Prime]

Just did a test flew at the SA-6 at .84 23k and it shot at 19.6 miles. Beamed with a speed of .65 and the missile blew up like 5.8 miles away. It is interesting that the SA-6 decides to shoot at that increased range. Not very conservative of missiles being that it only has 3 on each launcher. Would think it would wait for a better shot using its search radar then pop on and do the classic SAMBUSH. 

[Moonshine]

Sams in DCS are rather simplistic. Only by using scripts like Mantis or skynet you can make them behave less stupid. Until ED comes up with some more in-depth modelling of an actual IADS, thats sadly how it is. 

[Prime]

SA-11 shoots at ring around 20 miles not 6 miles prior like the SA-6 in comparison. 

[NineLine]

9 hours ago, Moonshine said:

Sams in DCS are rather simplistic. Only by using scripts like Mantis or skynet you can make them behave less stupid. Until ED comes up with some more in-depth modelling of an actual IADS, thats sadly how it is. 

I wouldnt say only, some of that can be done within the Mission Editor as well. Thanks.

[okopanja]

14 hours ago, Prime said:

Just did a test flew at the SA-6 at .84 23k and it shot at 19.6 miles. Beamed with a speed of .65 and the missile blew up like 5.8 miles away. It is interesting that the SA-6 decides to shoot at that increased range. Not very conservative of missiles being that it only has 3 on each launcher. Would think it would wait for a better shot using its search radar then pop on and do the classic SAMBUSH. 

It fired near it altitude ceiling. It should be noted that engament zone diagram by distance and altitude can be of different shape based on type of the SAM and chosen guidance law.

E.g. SA-6 would have a different diagram than e.g. SA-5. The second one for longer range goes into steep lofting trajectory which produces intererily different resultant shape.

No clue if the viper rings take that into account.

[Dragon1-1]

First of all, we need to ask what are the rings in the real Viper based on. If they're hardwired in the jet, then they should be set to the same values they're hardwired to IRL. More likely, the threat ring sizes are estimates either handed down from up high or entered by the pilots themselves into the DTC. Since any given SAM's WEZ is a complex shape, the rings are basically arbitrary zones just serving to give the pilots a rough idea of what kind of range bracket they should expect from a given system. The only question is, how does one actually enter this info IRL.

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I wouldnt say only, some of that can be done within the Mission Editor as well. Thanks.

This is absolutely true, but the process is a bit tedious and without a detection trigger, you can't truly tie SAM behavior to sensors without scripting.

I know the IADS module fell through, but some simple solutions for improved SAM behavior would help a lot. Things like a waypoint/triggered action to make SAM's flash on/off, an option to have them turn off in response to attacks automatically, and an option to link a SAM to EWR or AWACS and use radar for "attack only" like planes.