waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[YoYo]

[Braunn]

1 hour ago, Schmidtfire said:

It does not matter how complete it is at release. Without ongoing updates and support even a fully completed module will over time turn into a digital paperweight.

DCS World is always moving forward. For modules it means that new bugs are constantly introduced and artwork eventually needs updating.
Development of a module never truly stops. 

Very true that statement. The M2k is getting buggier and buggier. RIP my beloved Baguette. 

[nessuno0505]

In fact the real issue with RB leaving DCS is not the f-15e (as an early access product not guaranteed to be completed by definition) but the m2k and av8b (and mig-19 too), three almost finished products doomed to become buggier and buggier and eventually stop working at all as time goes by.

Edited June 1, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Pipe]

12 hours ago, stonewall197922 said:

At least f-14 more feature complete than f-15e. currently  many F-15e  features, system and weapons doesn`t work or not implemented yet. And there`s chances never will.

 

And has been around for a considerably longer period of time, not a great comparison..

[LordOrion]

36 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

In fact the real issue with RB leaving DCS is not the f-15e (as an early access product not guaranteed to be completed by definition) but the m2k and av8b (and mig-19 too), three almost finished products doomed to become buggier and buggier and eventually stop working at all as time goes by.

 

If RB quits, the F-15E will become buggier and buggier and eventually stop working as well... (and unfinished)!

Edited June 1, 2024 by LordOrion

[VpR81]

I´ve been observing what was written on the RB discord for quiet a while now and it gave me hope for most of the time as even the RB devs seemed to be very optimistic about the dispute beeing solved. But this has changed dramatically now, i´m giving up hope and call it a day. People on the RB discord seriously comparing the RB/ED dispute with slavery and claim ED wants to force RB to work for free. And they weren´t exaggerating, they were serious about the term slavery. I felt to jump in and tried to clarify what "slavery" truly is and them beeing overdramatic. My fault, recieved massive insults etc. and all this is tolerated by the RB moderators. The attitude on the RB discord is disgusting, honestly. I´m done with RB.

As a sidenote, Metal2Mesh said they offered ED a payment plan, but he deleted that message a few seconds later. Propably something RB didn´t want to share with the public. I was just too slow to take a screenshot...

[eFirehawk]

29 minutes ago, VpR81 said:

I´ve been observing what was written on the RB discord for quiet a while now and it gave me hope for most of the time as even the RB devs seemed to be very optimistic about the dispute beeing solved. But this has changed dramatically now, i´m giving up hope and call it a day. People on the RB discord seriously comparing the RB/ED dispute with slavery and claim ED wants to force RB to work for free. And they weren´t exaggerating, they were serious about the term slavery. I felt to jump in and tried to clarify what "slavery" truly is and them beeing overdramatic. My fault, recieved massive insults etc. and all this is tolerated by the RB moderators. The attitude on the RB discord is disgusting, honestly. I´m done with RB.

As a sidenote, Metal2Mesh said they offered ED a payment plan, but he deleted that message a few seconds later. Propably something RB didn´t want to share with the public. I was just too slow to take a screenshot...

This, coupled with (apparently) people in Reddit claiming that they started getting their refunds for the F-15E accepted, seems to mean that things are turning to the worst indeed and pretty much the final nail in the coffin of the SE.

Please, dear ED staff, before things start spiraling downwards even more I kindly ask for some degree of official clarification here. I think people are in the dark for way too long now and then such 'rumors' (which are wrong, right?) can grow even more and turn into who knows what...

[Brk195]

I dont post very often here, but this situation is serious enough and I have to join some here in saying that with the wave of refunds and the atmosphere at Razcord this complete lack of communication is unsustainable.

I understand that these things are complicated, tricky and take time but we’re now a few months in and plans for the future need to be addressed at least for the people who can’t get a refund like myself and many others here.

In case anybody decides to bring it up, yes I understand that it is early access and certain risks are to be expected, but still as a courtesy to your community and more importantly customers please tell us what’s going to happen or at least what’s happening now.
 

We are always thanked for our passion and support, the best way in my opinion to show this gratitude in this strange time is to talk to us and reassure us.

[Ignition]

1 hour ago, Brk195 said:

We are always thanked for our passion and support, the best way in my opinion to show this gratitude in this strange time is to talk to us and reassure us.

I agree with this.

Imagine if Razbam didn't say a thing, what would happened in these 4 months without any notification and module updates.

[Airbusjoerg]

6 hours ago, VpR81 said:

I´ve been observing what was written on the RB discord for quiet a while now and it gave me hope for most of the time as even the RB devs seemed to be very optimistic about the dispute beeing solved. But this has changed dramatically now, i´m giving up hope and call it a day. People on the RB discord seriously comparing the RB/ED dispute with slavery and claim ED wants to force RB to work for free. And they weren´t exaggerating, they were serious about the term slavery. I felt to jump in and tried to clarify what "slavery" truly is and them beeing overdramatic. My fault, recieved massive insults etc. and all this is tolerated by the RB moderators. The attitude on the RB discord is disgusting, honestly. I´m done with RB.

As a sidenote, Metal2Mesh said they offered ED a payment plan, but he deleted that message a few seconds later. Propably something RB didn´t want to share with the public. I was just too slow to take a screenshot...

Let's hope that no "structural" problems come to light here.
 

Edited June 2, 2024 by Airbusjoerg

[stonewall197922]

8 часов назад, Pipe сказал:

And has been around for a considerably longer period of time, not a great comparison..

But atleast f-14 more feature compleate. How long f15 in development? For 10 years? And it didn't complete even on half. Ok you dont have some data. But you can always switch to task you currently can do and not to stop development process. At curren rate f15 will be completed after another 10 years. And again you dont know real rb motives. Internet talk is just talk nothing more. Real picture have only company management. Even devs like metal mesh is just emloyee, not a ceo he even not a part of the company management. What he saying is practically rumors and not officiall statement. If ed rejected rb with payment, its because they sure rb violated critical paragraphs of agreement. Working at financial department in preaty big company, our company and i was involved in situation like ed and rb. And we never waited for a year when other side violated agreement. If rb waited so long means they already violated agreement. If other side rejected payments, how can you work for a year without funds? Maybe side jobs forced to ruin all development terms, and because of this violated agreement terms? Don't belive in rb internet talks. Need official statement. Can understand people begin to refund. Theres no currently light at the end of the tonel. And if you can return money now, why not? Who knows how turn things in the future? But this refunds can nail not the f15 but whole rb. Again several rb employees alrady quit(according to posts) How many quit without being public we dont know. 

P. S. About "slavery" maybe ed already paid all funds under  agreement? Again we dont know, anything other than official statement is rumors. Truth we know: no updates, no development and no official statement about case resolved. 

Edited June 2, 2024 by stonewall197922

[NineLine]

7 hours ago, VpR81 said:

I´ve been observing what was written on the RB discord for quiet a while now and it gave me hope for most of the time as even the RB devs seemed to be very optimistic about the dispute beeing solved. But this has changed dramatically now, i´m giving up hope and call it a day. People on the RB discord seriously comparing the RB/ED dispute with slavery and claim ED wants to force RB to work for free. And they weren´t exaggerating, they were serious about the term slavery. I felt to jump in and tried to clarify what "slavery" truly is and them beeing overdramatic. My fault, recieved massive insults etc. and all this is tolerated by the RB moderators. The attitude on the RB discord is disgusting, honestly. I´m done with RB.

As a sidenote, Metal2Mesh said they offered ED a payment plan, but he deleted that message a few seconds later. Propably something RB didn´t want to share with the public. I was just too slow to take a screenshot...

Nothing has changed, and nothing new to share. Unless a comment comes from the top people about possible solutions and such I wouldn't put much weight on them, most likely why the post you saw was deleted. 

As far as how you might be treated in that Discord, I am sorry you experienced that. There are a lot of intense feelings over there right now and they do not moderate like we do, some like that some don't. Just keep that in mind.

[Braunn]

With a dispute like this it's usually better to just close shop for the studio/company, cut the losses and do something else/start over. I have never seen a dispute like this end well for both parties. 

[stonewall197922]

Agree but needed statement from management otherwise it means bad end. More refunds an so on. 

Edited June 2, 2024 by stonewall197922

[NineLine]

13 minutes ago, Braunn said:

With a dispute like this it's usually better to just close shop for the studio/company, cut the losses and do something else/start over. I have never seen a dispute like this end well for both parties. 

The longer it goes the tougher it seems, but we are trying to stay positive and focused on getting back to normal. 

3 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

Agree but needed statement from management otherwise it means bad end. More refunds an so on. 

 

Management has said all they can right now. Right now we can only let them work on things and hope for the best.

[Braunn]

Yeah time is never a good ally in cases like this. And us customers don't really know how long it was before the turd hit that famous spinning fan, but I assume it was a minute or two. Hence why I posted earlier it's better to solve it quick and move on before it hits all kinds of legal crap. 

[stonewall197922]

RB shouldn't have gone to the public. Everything can be solved much easier. And now sales drop for rb and refunds which is makes solving this case much more difficult. 

[Blackeye]

18 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

RB shouldn't have gone to the public. Everything can be solved much easier. And now sales drop for rb and refunds which is makes solving this case much more difficult. 

I disagree. Solving this doesn't get easier or harder with public knowledge - keeping it private may make the involved parties look better but there isn't any possible solution that they have to exclude because of public knowledge.

Plus going public allows customers to make informed decisions when buying a module - I'd like to know if a module is essentially abandoned before I buy it. So while it may not be great for ED (or RB), as a customer I appreciate transparency.

[shinobi61]

@NineLine I really don't envy your position atm lol, i sit on the fence like most others looking at the 2 statements from both sides it seems more proffesional approach was from ED and also understand that ED had to make this response. So thats fine sit and wait. All the time thinking about the Hawk issue and thinking that the modules would be safe no matter what because things put in place after the VEAO thing.
However we are hearing that this is infact untrue or that Razbam had side stepped this policy or whatever.
I know this will be answered with the generic "we can't say anything at the moment" but it would be nice to be put at ease if ED could answer IF these modules would indeed be abandoned at the worst case OR does ED have the capability as stated before to upkeep these modules if Razbam ceased to exist or work on DCS.     

If indeed ED is UNABLE to sustain these modules in the event that the 3rd party leaves / disbands / ceases business then why is that? We were under the impression that this wouldn't be able to happen again.

I know alot of people just dont mind and carry on regardless, its only 4 modules afterall and some people dont even fly them, on the other hand you have fanatics of these modules first and foremost but also the people who see a wider picture without these 4 modules in the sim not to mention the surrounding business model / contractual failings and trust in the overall process, for me atm im finding it hard to even boot up DCS (after long break since this came to light) just because the whole situation bums me out and a huge cloud of uncertainty over the entire thing.

Passionate and supportive user.

Edited June 2, 2024 by shinobi61

[Horns]

Anyone else wondering why it's being implied that Razbam's staff's salaries come straight from ED? In my part of the world they'd get paid by Razbam, since that's the business they work for - any dispute about payments not being made by ED is between them and Razbam's ownership as far as I can see...

Edited June 2, 2024 by Horns
Corrected first sentence

[Blackeye]

6 minutes ago, Horns said:

Anyone else wondering why Razbam's staff seem to be implying that their salaries come straight from ED? In my part of the world they'd get paid by Razbam, since that's the business they work for - any dispute about payments not being made by ED is between them and Razbam's ownership as far as I can see...

 

Well Razbam isn't a huge corpo so I don't think they can afford to pay a lot of people out of their hoards of cash and the contracts might actually reflect that (e.g. payment once the money comes in from the sales) or maybe it's just them saying "sorry, dudes we can't pay you now, but you'll get your money once we get the payment from ED".

But yes, the dispute about the salaries should be (and is) between RB and their developers - that's why they quit from RB.

But the underlying reason for RB not paying them is ED not paying RB, and as a result RB stated they cannot work on those modules anymore. And that in turn of course affects the customers of ED, i.e. us.

[JumpinK]

I don't want a refund!

I want a Strike Eagle.

I want a Mirage 2000.

I want a Harrier.

I want a MiG-19.

 

I don't care about the money I've spent over the years on all of these products or DCS in general.

I just want to continue enjoying ALL of these great modules in my beloved digital combat simulator!

I don't understand people asking for refunds at this moment.

I trusted ED and their 3rd party developers for about 12 years now and pre-purchased almost every module available to support the devs and of course I'm willing trust them all for at least another decade but if the modules from RB will be abandoned, my trust will be gone and my DCS time will be history.

Edited June 2, 2024 by JumpinK

[Horns]

I agree/understand that ultimately if revenue isn't flowing through Razbam will eventually get to a crunch point where they have to stop operating. I also agree that the workers do have a stake in this, even if they aren't party to the dispute. Your point is well made.

Just wanted to point out that Razbam is on the hook for these people's salaries as long as the company is still trading, regardless of how this dispute between Razbam and ED goes. I'm fairly sure payment of salary can't be contingent on action (eg payment) by a third party in my jurisdiction for exactly this reason - so they don't end up in the middle of a dispute they can't intervene in. I hope that's the case in Razbam's workers jurisdiction/s too.

[Blackeye]

39 minutes ago, Horns said:

so they don't end up in the middle of a dispute they can't intervene in

Absolutely.

Though unfortunately they may not be employees in the traditional sense, i.e. office space with cubicles and a 9to5 job, and thus with legal protection.

If you look at the https://forum.dcs.world/topic/140384-meet-the-team-13-years-of-razbam-simulations/ post it seems it's mostly a handful of people from all over the world often doing freelance/contract work.

 

[VpR81]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

Nothing has changed, and nothing new to share. Unless a comment comes from the top people about possible solutions and such I wouldn't put much weight on them, most likely why the post you saw was deleted. 

As far as how you might be treated in that Discord, I am sorry you experienced that. There are a lot of intense feelings over there right now and they do not moderate like we do, some like that some don't. Just keep that in mind.

I see. What i wanted to say is, that the tone on the RB discord and my attitude has changed dramatically. I´m aware of the fact, that only official statements of the managment can be taken serious and the rest beeing claims. It´s just that i can´t keep my mouth shut once i feel someone is treated unfair. Nevermind, i should´ve never jumped into that discussion (or more accurate, hate speech), my own fault. Never faced something like that on a official discord of any corp, so the moderation on the ED Forum is much appreciated.

 

9 hours ago, eFirehawk said:

This, coupled with (apparently) people in Reddit claiming that they started getting their refunds for the F-15E accepted, seems to mean that things are turning to the worst indeed and pretty much the final nail in the coffin of the SE.

I don´t want to cry wolf, but i´m afraid this could be the case. Hard to maintain hope there....

 

3 hours ago, stonewall197922 said:

About "slavery" maybe ed already paid all funds under  agreement?

Slavery is the ownership of a person as property and in no way comparable to this situation. Not even a little bit, regardless what is happening behind the scenes. To come up with such a term/claim is completely unreasonable, no matter how frustrated someone might be. No offense sir, just saying.

 

1 hour ago, Horns said:

Anyone else wondering why it's being implied that Razbam's staff's salaries come straight from ED? In my part of the world they'd get paid by Razbam, since that's the business they work for - any dispute about payments not being made by ED is between them and Razbam's ownership as far as I can see...

Exactly this. IMPO, Razbam management is just leaving ED to hold the baby. I came to the conclusion, that RB management is not honest to their customers. But that is, as i said, just my personal opinion.