waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Blackeye]

15 minutes ago, Swiso said:

There must be a reason.....

Maybe they think they are owed that amount for IP infringement? Maybe they need cash for another interest free loan to Nick's warbird collection? Maybe both or something completely different? - who knows. Many reasons why you'd want to withhold payment or have extra cash at hand.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Blackeye

[Romandv]

2 часа назад, Atazar SPN сказал:

Why shouldn't I defend RAZBAM? I am a worker like them and if my boss doesn't pay me, I won't work.

Whether to defend RB or not is entirely up to you. I just don't understand the motivation. Maybe you can explain why they worked for a year for free?

Pretty sure they have a contractual obligation based on work done and product availability for x period of time, not an hourly rate. My assumption is based on only one thing - it was the RB that didn't get paid, not all devs. So the problem is clearly not all third party dev's, but only one.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Romandv

[Atazar SPN]

hace 22 minutos, Swiso dijo:

Why shoot in your foot like this ?

There must be a reason.....

The only reason for suspending a salary is the cessation of work by the employee. If RB has breached any contractual point, go to conciliation and study another type of sanction.

[Swiso]

46 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

Maybe they think they are owed that amount for IP infringement? Maybe they need cash for another interest free loan to Nick's warbird collection? Maybe both or something completely different? - who knows. Many reasons why you'd want to withhold payment or have extra cash at hand.

 

And why only RB and not the other 20 3rd party developers if not for the IP infringement assumption (and statement from ED) ?

[stonewall197922]

RB (notso) as i remeber mentioned that HB was unpaid for 18 month after release f14. Whats happened then?

 

[Silver_Dragon]

3 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

RB (notso) as i remeber mentioned that HB was unpaid for 18 month after release f14. Whats happened then?

Someone remember HB has talked with that dispute has none to do with them, and they has none problems with ED?.

[Guille H. Mono]

Yes, that very elegant first move of trying to push other company in front of their claim dind't work as intended and should give everyone an insight in the matter, even if you are not the sharpest tool in the shed or you are here just trying to validate all the trash said in Discord.

[nessuno0505]

I'm not a legal expert, but this is how I see all this stuff:

- if I want a refund, be it another similar module in sostitution, free ED miles to spend or cash, I need to deal with ED, since I've bought on their site.

- if I want to complain about four modules left unfinished / bugs or broken things not fixed, I have to complain with RB and RB only, since RB suddently decided and publicly declared, 2 months ago, to stop the development and maintenance of all of their modules.

In summary: I ask ED for the money, but I blame RB.

Whatever the post-Veao politics is about, it's unlikely ED can take care / continue to develop or even just maintain / fix four more modules in addition to their own. If RB leaves, those 4 modules are doomed to die. I do not believe this would be the end of DCS. Maybe it could be the end of 3rd party collaboration, but today DCS has enough modules made by ED on its own to live even without 3rd parts. DCS healths is mainly linked to how the matter will be handled if RB leaves: refunds (even in the form of free modules or free ED miles) for all the RB customers would be positive; leaving people in uncertainty for months or reneging on promises made after Veao events would probably be the beginning of the end.

Edited June 4, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Swiso]

4 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

I'm not a legal expert, but this is how I see all this stuff:

- if I want a refund, be it another similar module in sostitution, free ED miles to spend or cash, I need to deal with ED, since I've bought on their site.

- if I want to complain about four modules left unfinished / bugs or broken things not fixed, I have to complain with RB and RB only, since RB suddently decided and publicly declared, 2 months ago, to stop the development and maintenance of all of their modules.

Whatever the post-Veao politics is about, it's unlikely ED can take care / continue to develop or even just maintain / fix four more modules in addition to their own. If RB leaves, those 4 modules are doomed to die. I do not believe this would be the end of DCS. Maybe it could be the end of 3rd party collaboration, but today DCS has enough modules made by ED on its own to live even without 3rd parts. DCS healths is mainly linked to how the matter will be handled if RB leaves: refunds (even in the form of free modules or free ED miles) for all the RB customers would be positive; leaving people in uncertainty for months or reneging on promises made after Veao events would probably be the beginning of the end.

And that bring to the table the question:

Should I buy any 3rd party collaboration module fron now on?

Yes: only if ED guarantee that the module will not be allowed to die.

No: without this guarantee.

 

[ebabil]

this is a very complex aircraft. I think it would be the last thing that ED would like to do is take over this module. They will need to employ too much workforce into this for a low income

[Silver_Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Swiso said:

And that bring to the table the question:

Should I buy any 3rd party collaboration module fron now on?

Yes: only if ED guarantee that the module will not be allowed to die.

No: without this guarantee.

 

And kill all DCS World and 3rd party system.... the bad publicity has increase to destroy all.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Horns]

3 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

The only reason for suspending a salary is the cessation of work by the employee. If RB has breached any contractual point, go to conciliation and study another type of sanction.

This is not an employer-employee relationship. Razbam produces a product that is provided to ED for sale. Very different situations.

As far as the comment (not from Atazar SPN) about ED supposedly being in a tough financial position, let's not assume that Razbam would know, and remember that RB have very deliberately made public comments to create pressure on ED. Whether people think that they are justified in doing that or not, they have motivation to make things sound bad for ED, so let's not attach too much weight to Razbam's opinions on a separate company.

All personal opinion, of course.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Horns
Changed 'reason' to 'motivation'

[BIGNEWY]

Folks we know it is frustrating but please keep to the forum rules and leave the conspiracy talk for reddit. 

 

[Wizard_03]

I don't see any ED reps/mods making publicly disparaging remarks or launching personal attacks at razbam. That speaks volumes to me.

[LordOrion]

34 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

I don't see any ED reps/mods making publicly disparaging remarks or launching personal attacks at razbam. That speaks volumes to me.

Unlike us simple users, they cannot behave like sport fans, it would be unprofessional (and making things worst).

[Wizard_03]

I just mean you read rons statement on discord about how they want to get back to work and turn the page on this issue. Then you scroll down to see their devs talking like ED is worst company in the world, and Nick is actually Voldemort from harry potter, encouraging customers to go to other sims, changing stories. Ect. 

 

It's kind of a mixed messaging on razbam's part imo. I don't see how we can move on and get back to normal if they can't even normalize communication about the issue. Doesn't seem like good faith acting, but what do I know. 

 

I can understand being frustrated at ED but launching attacks on ED reps clearly won't make this situation better. Even if they are in the right, which we have no way of knowing. It's literally he said, she said as far as we are concerned. 

Edited June 4, 2024 by Wizard_03

[JuiceIsLoose]

6 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

I just mean you read rons statement on discord about how they want to get back to work and turn the page on this issue. Then you scroll down to see their devs talking like ED is worst company in the world, and Nick is actually Voldemort from harry potter, encouraging customers to go to other sims, changing stories. Ect. 

 

It's kind of a mixed messaging on razbam's part imo. I don't see how we can move on and get back to normal if they can't even normalize communication about the issue. Doesn't seem like good faith acting, but what do I know. 

Most of the interactions I have seen have shown that the Devs that are speaking up WANT to get back to work. They may have views on ED based on the situation, but at the end of the day they want to continue working. But how I interpret the messaging is that they want resolution to the core issue (which I wont go into claims/etc.) before they start work up again.

[Silver_Dragon]

All actual situation remember me "Monty Python and the Spanish Inquision".... "facepalm".... 

 

[JuiceIsLoose]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

And kill all DCS World and 3rd party system.... the bad publicity has increase to destroy all.

 

I think it is valid that users are questioning what will happen with modules they have already purchased.

There is lots of talk (based on the previous VEOA Hawk forum) in the ED discord that ED will maintain these modules if RB did leave. I don't think anyone (including RB and ED) want RB to leave or go away. But, I think there is a possibility that it could happen, unfortunate as it would be. And users would like to know, what would happen in that case. And I think that is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

I think this issue is then sparking the conversation about third party modules (apart from just Razbam). Again, what would happen to modules users have purchased if a third party were to leave or go away. Would ED support those modules? And I don't think anyone but ED can answer that. And again, I don't think that is an unreasonable question to ask.

In my opinion, because ED hasn't addressed these questions, this is what is causing people to run with ideas or "conspiracy theories".

Edited June 4, 2024 by JuiceIsLoose

[LordOrion]

29 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

I just mean you read rons statement on discord about how they want to get back to work and turn the page on this issue.

...

There is a new statement? Link?

[stonewall197922]

16 минут назад, LordOrion сказал:

There is a new statement? Link?

Nothing new, relax it will last for a half of a year i think. If lawsuits is in deal.

Edited June 4, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Silver_Dragon]

41 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

I think it is valid that users are questioning what will happen with modules they have already purchased.

There is lots of talk (based on the previous VEOA Hawk forum) in the ED discord that ED will maintain these modules if RB did leave. I don't think anyone (including RB and ED) want RB to leave or go away. But, I think there is a possibility that it could happen, unfortunate as it would be. And users would like to know, what would happen in that case. And I think that is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

I think this issue is then sparking the conversation about third party modules (apart from just Razbam). Again, what would happen to modules users have purchased if a third party were to leave or go away. Would ED support those modules? And I don't think anyone but ED can answer that. And again, I don't think that is an unreasonable question to ask.

In my opinion, because ED hasn't addressed these questions, this is what is causing people to run with ideas or "conspiracy theories".

Always the shame..... "ED has the Devil"... I leave the post now.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[JuiceIsLoose]

4 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Always the shame..... ED has the Devil... leave them.

 

I don't think I called ED the Devil there at all? Or said anything negative about ED there. I am simply stating in that post that there are questions, which I view as valid, that ED hasn't answered.

I think it is entirely possible to have this conversation without talking negatively about either party. Which I am trying to do. I don't view asking questions and voicing concern is talking negatively about a company. Certainly not calling them the Devil. I don't want to leave DCS, I enjoy the game. And it is with that passion for the game, its modules, and its community that I am asking these questions.

[Wizard_03]

It's unprofessional, and it's no way to treat business partners EVEN if you are in the right. There is never a need for personal attacks period. 

 

What happens if they do figure things out and go back to work? Can't really take anything back on the Internet. Everyone now knows how they feel. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable buying things made by them, that will require future support knowing that. So the damage is done as far as I'm concerned. 

Edited June 4, 2024 by Wizard_03

[AJaromir]

Being an official 3rd party developer to me means that ED guarantees the quality of those developers. After all, developers could easily release content for DCS:W unofficially, simply as a paid mod. That's more or less how it has been working for decades in X-plane, FSX and MSFS2020. And as we know, you don't need to be an official developer to make a reputation for a team. See the A-4E project, PMDG addons for MSFS, A2A addons for MSFS,... Never official, still better than original.

Edited June 4, 2024 by AJaromir