Whats the status?

[Darth Holliday]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

Yes I say so, the difference should be very obvious, but just in case I spell it out for you:

The average Kickstarter campaign has a concept, nothing else. An early mock-up at best. 

Now try to find the difference to EA, where you basically pay to be an beta-tester (for the benefit of having, you know, Access to it, whilst it gets finished). But it is 90% done and you can actually use it.

    

             Thank-You for the spelling lesson in your typical historical smugness... Some developers make no bones about the fact that development can stop at anytime and what you have is what you get..While other make big productions of their future products to get you to buy into them...So it really boils down  to buyer beware..

 

[rlm_easy]

It’s just been a bit more than a week since the little incident,  and RB said they want to move forward and turn the page. So nothing to be worried about. If this happened behind closed doors we wouldn’t even have known about it. Stay positive

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Gizmo03 said:

Thats just the standard answer on complaints about missing features or slow development. But thats not the point of this discussion. People are affraid the Strike Eagle could be cancelled completely and you need to understand that THIS is for sure NOT the concept of EA.
Again: when you buy EA you buy a NOT YET finished product at a certain developement stage for the full price but you expect it to be finished one day and not cancelled and maybe even removed from the game at all because the core game doesn't support it anymore.

But i'm always optimistic and i guess everything will be fine sooner or later. As Hiob already quoted: no one wants to abandon the RB products.

I think this is what it boils down too, some people are completely shell shocked by the first announcement of Razbam and see the glass half empty (or empty for that matter), whilst others prefer to wait for a definitive result of the issue, before deciding on their reaction.

And I (smug as I am ) just try to advertise for keeping it cool until there is actual reason to get mad. (which may come or not, who knows. Personally I don’t believe it will, but I‘m sure some people will get mad at me for being offensive optimistic )

1 hour ago, Darth Holliday said:

    

             Thank-You for the spelling lesson in your typical historical smugness...

 

You‘re welcome! 

[OldFlyer]

2 hours ago, Darth Holliday said:

    

Some developers make no bones about the fact that development can stop at anytime and what you have is what you get..

 

Example please? Just one will do. Any one statement by an official third party developer (ie not a mod) that states that “development can stop at any time and what you have is what you get.” 
 

edit: I’m talking about Early Access.

Edited April 15 by OldFlyer

[aaronwhite]

4 hours ago, Gizmo03 said:

Thats just the standard answer on complaints about missing features or slow development. But thats not the point of this discussion. People are affraid the Strike Eagle could be cancelled completely and you need to understand that THIS is for sure NOT the concept of EA.
Again: when you buy EA you buy a NOT YET finished product at a certain developement stage for the full price but you expect it to be finished one day and not cancelled and maybe even removed from the game at all because the core game doesn't support it anymore.

But i'm always optimistic and i guess everything will be fine sooner or later. As Hiob already quoted: no one wants to abandon the RB products.

That's always going to be a risk with early access, which is why there's also the discount given. If people want to put their money up on the promise of things to come being what they expect, they can, and they get a discount in the process as a trade off. If people want to wait until the thing is feature complete, and just watch the progress from afar, they can do that and then just have a higher price to pay down the road.

Without really knowing anything more on what's going on between RAZBAM and ED, it does seem like this is part of the way ED handles 3rd party modules after the mess that was the Hawk forever ago, where ED was left with a module that they apparently couldn't really do anything with because they lacked the source code and were stuck with a module they could no longer properly support after the original developer went away. ED, from what I remember, changed it to where companies have to provide them the source code so that in the event that a developer just collapses or decides they don't want to deal with DCS anymore, the customers who purchased their modules aren't left without a functioning module and ED is left with the choice of having to remove a module people already paid for or try to reverse engineer some module to get to a point where they can update it. Also, I believe ED requires a certain level of development to be achieved before a 3rd party can put their module up for sale.

Edited April 15 by aaronwhite

[Darth Holliday]

1 hour ago, OldFlyer said:

Example please? Just one will do. Any one statement by an official third party developer (ie not a mod) that states that “development can stop at any time and what you have is what you get.” 
 

edit: I’m talking about Early Access.

 

 

  Will this do...

 

Early Access Game

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. "

 

   https://store.steampowered.com/app/2413050/Retrowave_World/

[Art-J]

20 minutes ago, aaronwhite said:

ED, from what I remember, changed it to where companies have to provide them the source code so that in the event that a developer just collapses or decides they don't want to deal with DCS anymore, the customers who purchased their modules aren't left without a functioning module and ED is left with the choice of having to remove a module people already paid for or try to reverse engineer some module to get to a point where they can update it. 

Yeah, that's indeed how it was supposed to be after VEAO collapse, but during the whole last week shebang one of the Raz devs hinted that ED doesn't actually have full source code of the Eagle for whatever reason. It might be BS info for all we know, but without further clarification on that hint, one can see why it makes some people nervous given the history of Hawk module.

As for the EA meaning purchasing unfinished product for full price, I'd like to remind that F-15E never got to its planned full price, so one could also argue that since it's sold 20% off, it can be abandoned with 80% functionality as well and that would be a "fair" deal. Granted, we can only hope this saga will have a happier ending.

[SkateZilla]

If you guys / gals knew how many games don't make it past early access before being cancelled, you'd lose your mind. 

It's not a DCS / 3rd Party scenario at all, it's a general software business scenario.

[PawlaczGMD]

Why are so many people like high school girls, gossiping about who said what for hours here? We know nothing concrete about the incident. Let them work it out instead of bringing up some speculation and drama every day. 

[Ignition]

I have lots of modules but without the F-15E DCS feels very dead for me. I don't feel the need to play DCS any more.

I hope the development of the F-15E resumes as soon as possible.

[OldFlyer]

12 hours ago, Darth Holliday said:

 

  Will this do...

 

Early Access Game

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. "

 

   https://store.steampowered.com/app/2413050/Retrowave_World/

No mate, that will not do. That's a completely different game....

Attached is the DCS Early Access warning. This doesn't suggest to the purchaser that development will just cease.

What is DCS World Early Access?

Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs. The time a product remains in Early Access can vary widely based on the scope of the project, technical hurdles, and how complete the module is when it enters Early Access. Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible. Once the module exits Early Access, you will automatically have the Release version.

11 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

If you guys / gals knew how many games don't make it past early access before being cancelled, you'd lose your mind. 

It's not a DCS / 3rd Party scenario at all, it's a general software business scenario.

How many of those games did people pay upwards of $50 for?

[Darth Holliday]

2 hours ago, OldFlyer said:

No mate, that will not do. That's a completely different game....

 

 

             Yes..Its a different game, by a different developer, for a different platform..It is a not. mod ect...It is an example of Early Access from others and what is widely believed and used...So, this is what you asked for..

 

"Example please? Just one will do. Any one statement by an official third party developer (ie not a mod) that states that “development can stop at any time and what you have is what you get.”

                If it isn't finished, don't buy the hype, the fancy produced  Youtube and all their hacks.. As written above you are funding an unfinished product and most likely will not be finished...Another KickStarter or Gofundme or early access..Caveat emptor

             

[CaptJodan]

8 hours ago, Ignition said:

I have lots of modules but without the F-15E DCS feels very dead for me. I don't feel the need to play DCS any more.

I hope the development of the F-15E resumes as soon as possible.

Certainly you're free to not play anymore as desired.  Everyone has their own reasons for playing or not playing a game.  Still, it's a very strange position.  

The F-15E in its current condition is still in the game.  You don't have to play DCS without the F-15E, as it's still there.  Is your desire to play DCS contingent only on the F-15E being complete?  Well it's not complete so far, so why were you playing DCS before?  Or is your desire to play based solely on the hope that one day it will be complete?  In that case, why not wait till the product is complete when you know you have all (or most) of what you want from the product?  It seems like your motivation for playing DCS revolves solely on whether or not this one plane is in active development.  Doesn't even really matter what stage of development it is in, just that your enjoyment seems to come exclusively from knowing devs are still working on it.  That's wild to me.  Different strokes, I guess.  

Or it's just a reactionary tantrum to some unfortunate news.  Denying yourself enjoyment of a module that still exists and was good enough to play before this Raz/ED issue.  

 

Judging by the subsequent public messages by both companies, I'm tentatively hopeful that some kind of arrangement will be worked out between them that doesn't mean the end of these modules.  I'm also hoping both companies do not have intentions to part ways.  Time will tell, but in the meantime, I still have a game to play.  

[Ignition]

17 minutes ago, CaptJodan said:

Certainly you're free to not play anymore as desired.  Everyone has their own reasons for playing or not playing a game.  Still, it's a very strange position.  

The F-15E in its current condition is still in the game.  You don't have to play DCS without the F-15E, as it's still there.  Is your desire to play DCS contingent only on the F-15E being complete?  Well it's not complete so far, so why were you playing DCS before?  Or is your desire to play based solely on the hope that one day it will be complete?  In that case, why not wait till the product is complete when you know you have all (or most) of what you want from the product?  It seems like your motivation for playing DCS revolves solely on whether or not this one plane is in active development.  Doesn't even really matter what stage of development it is in, just that your enjoyment seems to come exclusively from knowing devs are still working on it.  That's wild to me.  Different strokes, I guess.  

Or it's just a reactionary tantrum to some unfortunate news.  Denying yourself enjoyment of a module that still exists and was good enough to play before this Raz/ED issue.  

 

Judging by the subsequent public messages by both companies, I'm tentatively hopeful that some kind of arrangement will be worked out between them that doesn't mean the end of these modules.  I'm also hoping both companies do not have intentions to part ways.  Time will tell, but in the meantime, I still have a game to play.  

I dedicate to one aircraft for several years, until I know 99% how to use everything it has to offer. ATM the F-15E lacks a lot of features and has some bugs which need some workarounds. I don't feel like keep learning it without knowing when the development will resume. Also the 6-7 weeks between patches is not helping either.

I flew the F-16 for 4 years and it was great but It's done for me, at least for some time. And the rest of the aircraft I own don't attract my attention ATM.

So DCS will be on pause also for me until the F-15E comes back with development.

[Hiob]

5 minutes ago, Ignition said:

I dedicate to one aircraft for several years, until I know 99% how to use everything it has to offer. ATM the F-15E lacks a lot of features and has some bugs which need some workarounds. I don't feel like keep learning it without knowing when the development will resume. Also the 6-7 weeks between patches is not helping either.

I flew the F-16 for 4 years and it was great but It's done for me, at least for some time. And the rest of the aircraft I own don't attract my attention ATM.

So DCS will be on pause also for me until the F-15E comes back with development.

Not interested in Helicopters? F-16 and F-15 might suggest you could like the Apache - IF you are interested in choppers at all.

[SkateZilla]

6 hours ago, OldFlyer said:

No mate, that will not do. That's a completely different game....

Attached is the DCS Early Access warning. This doesn't suggest to the purchaser that development will just cease.

What is DCS World Early Access?

Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs. The time a product remains in Early Access can vary widely based on the scope of the project, technical hurdles, and how complete the module is when it enters Early Access. Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible. Once the module exits Early Access, you will automatically have the Release version.

How many of those games did people pay upwards of $50 for?

That's a dumb question, because Software Industry Pricing standard for most games and programs is $69.99 now.

[OldFlyer]

4 hours ago, Darth Holliday said:

             Yes..Its a different game, by a different developer, for a different platform..

 

36 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

That's a dumb question, because Software Industry Pricing standard for most games and programs is $69.99 now.

You missed my point entirely.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

I dedicate to one aircraft for several years, until I know 99% how to use everything it has to offer.

 

I do almost the same, flying a single aircraft for several months at a time, but can't imagine flying a single type for years .. there are too many aircraft that I want to learn before I die 

 

[Ignition]

8 hours ago, Hiob said:

Not interested in Helicopters? F-16 and F-15 might suggest you could like the Apache - IF you are interested in choppers at all.

I have the AH-64D, it's great. The problem is I fly with a group of people and we train together, and not everyone have helicopters. And the missions need to have an explicit place for the helicopters. The time of flight is an issue for multiplayer missions and it adds a complexity layer for TOT for the mission designer.

[Ignition]

7 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I do almost the same, flying a single aircraft for several months at a time, but can't imagine flying a single type for years .. there are too many aircraft that I want to learn before I die 

 

There was a time when I had extra time and flew more than one aircraft. The problem was I never had the opportunity to fully learn them.

I have a lot of satisfaction when everything goes by the numbers and can do everything as "perfect" as possible. If I'm doing something wrong I repeat it until I do it right.

 

I fully train in one single aircraft at a time and I don't stop until I learn everything and I'm very confident to use every tool without overthinking. Then I start creating my own tactics for weapon deployment. It takes a lot of time.

The F-15E for me is HUGE, the amount of tools it has plus the human WSO adds another layer. For me is the best aircraft of DCS. It's possible to use it from the 90's making it very usable for different missions.
I hope we get good news about the F-15E as soon as possible.

[Rudel_chw]

20 minutes ago, Ignition said:

... I hope we get good news about the F-15E as soon as possible.

 

Same, I really really hope that Razbam and ED can fix their disagreements, as I own every razbam DCS product and wants to see them continue to improve them as times goes on. The F-15E is not really my favorite aircraft, as I'm more of an early Cold War kind of guy, but I still enjoyed learning it for a few months .. I even did a set of missions for it that were enjoyable to edit (https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3333987/) ... but after a few months I still wanted to move onto other aircraft, its my way of keeping the DCS experience fresh 

Cheers, and fingers crossed about this quarrel ... please ED & Razbam, try to fix this  

[Gizmo03]

Am 15.4.2024 um 21:56 schrieb aaronwhite:

That's always going to be a risk with early access, which is why there's also the discount given.

 

 

That's not the reason for the discount. We get it for a lower price because we are paying for a product which is not yet finished.

[Darth Holliday]

On 4/16/2024 at 11:55 AM, OldFlyer said:

 

You missed my point entirely.

 

 As did you !!    LMAO

So we're even..!!

[rfxcasey]

On 4/15/2024 at 4:23 PM, Darth Holliday said:

 

  Will this do...

 

Early Access Game

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. "

 

   https://store.steampowered.com/app/2413050/Retrowave_World/

Copy pasting a disclaimer from a random game on Steam has absolutely no relevance to the matter at hand. Every publisher will have their own policies. Razbam modules aren't even a "game" per say, DCS world is the game, Razbam modules are paid DLC. You seem to be grabbing at straws with irrelevant arguments.

Edited April 18 by rfxcasey

[bfr]

On 4/15/2024 at 9:32 PM, Art-J said:

Yeah, that's indeed how it was supposed to be after VEAO collapse, but during the whole last week shebang one of the Raz devs hinted that ED doesn't actually have full source code of the Eagle for whatever reason. It might be BS info for all we know, but without further clarification on that hint, one can see why it makes some people nervous given the history of Hawk module.

As for the EA meaning purchasing unfinished product for full price, I'd like to remind that F-15E never got to its planned full price, so one could also argue that since it's sold 20% off, it can be abandoned with 80% functionality as well and that would be a "fair" deal. Granted, we can only hope this saga will have a happier ending.

Its entirely possible for both things to be true.  You can have escrow arrangements where a supplier is obliged to always push up-to-date source to an external repository.  The other partner does not have any access to that escrowed source until a defined trigger condition occurs (e.g. insolvency, breaking of the contract).  This means the buyer has contingency if a key but small supplier goes under, and the supplier can maintain full control of their own IP whilst they're still trading and/or keeping up their side of the deal.