Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Aapje]

Trustmaster made a mess of their sim racing line-up, coasting on their belt-drive line-up, only to get mostly made obsolete by cheap direct drive systems. They finally did release a direct drive offering, but it is fairly mediocre.

So I don't know whether they have it in them.

[Nightdare]

On 6/21/2024 at 12:47 PM, Thunderchief2000 said:

I'm not sure you need the huge torque of something like the FFBeast, but a bit more than 9nm would be good

I agree that I wouldn't want to stop flying because my hands hurt and tingle from the workout they've been given

Thing is though, that heavier motors set lighter will last longer

[ebabil]

I have to use two sticks because I can’t fly helicopters without ffb. But my msffb2 stick is so old fashioned, its buttons are not enough. I am thinking about getting this base and use this one for all aircraft’s. 
but the base looks insanely big. My desk mount doesn’t seem to be able to handle it. I need something different 

[Thadiun Okona]

13 hours ago, Biggus said:

Image on the box looks very much like a Winwing stick, although that youtube clip shows him plugging a TM stick into the base.  There's also this:

I can't help but wonder whether Moza and Winwing might be collaborating on this?

 

https://packaged-media.redd.it/z11e...=1d9f1efc0786cc049189b7b4e46c18a0acf7a0e0#t=0

[Morat]

22 hours ago, ebabil said:

I have to use two sticks because I can’t fly helicopters without ffb. But my msffb2 stick is so old fashioned, its buttons are not enough. I am thinking about getting this base and use this one for all aircraft’s. 
but the base looks insanely big. My desk mount doesn’t seem to be able to handle it. I need something different 

I'm pretty sure this will need to be mounted on the floor with an extension. At least, that's how I see it working for me.

[ebabil]

In the fs expo, they showed this base mounted at the right side of a chair. In that case it looks ok to me

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Morat said:

I'm pretty sure this will need to be mounted on the floor with an extension. At least, that's how I see it working for me.

From their website:

 

[Nightdare]

On 6/22/2024 at 2:14 PM, Aapje said:

Trustmaster made a mess of their sim racing line-up, coasting on their belt-drive line-up, only to get mostly made obsolete by cheap direct drive systems. They finally did release a direct drive offering, but it is fairly mediocre.

So I don't know whether they have it in them.

 

TM Has been coasting on their position in a small market, and instead of using that succes for innovation, simply sat on their laurels

Trouble for TM is that they can't innovate at a competitive price, because they would have to defend their archaic warthog's price point or significantly cut that price

They have it in them tech-wise, but market-wise?

[rapid]

For those that use their flight stick on the right you can kind of gauge the size of the Moza FFB Base and how it would look.

 

 

[MAXsenna]

 
TM Has been coasting on their position in a small market, and instead of using that succes for innovation, simply sat on their laurels
Trouble for TM is that they can't innovate at a competitive price, because they would have to defend their archaic warthog's price point or significantly cut that price
They have it in them tech-wise, but market-wise?

TM went downhill when the were bought....

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[Hiob]

Mounting an FFB as side stick? Ok……

[Oesau]

7 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

TM Has been coasting on their position in a small market, and instead of using that succes for innovation, simply sat on their laurels

Trouble for TM is that they can't innovate at a competitive price, because they would have to defend their archaic warthog's price point or significantly cut that price

They have it in them tech-wise, but market-wise?

Yep think their days maybe numbered, at least in the FS world. As you have said, they have rested on their laurels and in past few years more and more competitors have come into the market and have had to be innovative/uplift capabilities to capture a slice. Now TM are so far behind and with their latest new base, its not looking good for them (the new base is nothing new - other than they have added a "different" shape to it....)

FFB/haptic are looking to be something of a re-emerging theme this year which is welcomed. I've really enjoyed the WinWing F-15EX with the motors in it, sure its not FFB (not that you need that in a throttle) but its just a nice little immersion factor that I really like e.g. can feel bombs being released.

[Aapje]

Trustmaster's big strength is their sales channel and brand name. They still have a great shot at keeping a strong position in the market place, but they risk a reputation reversal where they become known as the bad brand.

[MAXsenna]

Yep think their days maybe numbered, at least in the FS world. As you have said, they have rested on their laurels and in past few years more and more competitors have come into the market and have had to be innovative/uplift capabilities to capture a slice. Now TM are so far behind and with their latest new base, its not looking good for them (the new base is nothing new - other than they have added a "different" shape to it....)
FFB/haptic are looking to be something of a re-emerging theme this year which is welcomed. I've really enjoyed the WinWing F-15EX with the motors in it, sure its not FFB (not that you need that in a throttle) but its just a nice little immersion factor that I really like e.g. can feel bombs being released.

The new base is way too late. I cannot fathom their research didn't go into an FFB base. Then they might have been ahead again.
FFB in throttles, collectives and what not will be very handy in multi crew. Just sayin'!

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[boedha68]

On 6/21/2024 at 12:06 PM, Thunderchief2000 said:

HI guys, don't know if this is already known about (I've not been on here for a while)  but I saw this on overtake.gg  

It looks like MOZA who makes simracing equipment is getting into the flight sim side with a force feedback joystick.  

they also seem to be doing a throttle and Rudders, but I'm mostly interested in a hopefully reasonable priced ffb joystick.  looks like it uses a standard joystick connector so hopefully it will take thrustmaster/virple grips.

 

null

 

Yep, TM can on it. I saw at live stream Fsexpo. 

[Aapje]

6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

The new base is way too late. I cannot fathom their research didn't go into an FFB base. Then they might have been ahead again.
FFB in throttles, collectives and what not will be very handy in multi crew. Just sayin'!

With their sales channel and brand name, TM don't have to be ahead. Just not too far behind.

And I expect these new FFB bases to remain a niche, with plenty of sales in the non-FFB bases. In general, most of the sales tend to be for the cheaper stuff. The bigger deficiency than not having a FFB base is that Trustmaster still has very crappy low-end options, much inferior to the Wingwing Ursa Minor. Wingwing is clearly aiming at the people who currently buy the T.16000M with their $84 Ursa Minor Airline edition that they just announced.

If Winwing or another competitor comes out with a half-decent $120 throttle and $120 rudder pedals, and releases an XBox-version, then the TM-line has been made fully obsolete.

Note that I also see a large gap for a lower budget FFB option. Basically an upgraded MS FFB2. The first company to fill that gap could make a lot of money.

[Hiob]

Just now, Aapje said:

With their sales channel and brand name, TM don't have to be ahead. Just not too far behind.

And I expect these new FFB bases to remain a niche, ....

A niche, sure, but (Flight-Sim-)FFB seem to awake from its "Sleeping-Beauty" state recently. Moza and co. wouldn't enter the market, if they wouldn't see a profit in it.

[MAXsenna]

With their sales channel and brand name, TM don't have to be ahead. Just not too far behind.
And I expect these new FFB bases to remain a niche, with plenty of sales in the non-FFB bases. In general, most of the sales tend to be for the cheaper stuff. The bigger deficiency than not having a FFB base is that Trustmaster still has very crappy low-end options, much inferior to the Wingwing Ursa Minor. Wingwing is clearly aiming at the people who currently buy the T.16000M with their $84 Ursa Minor Airline edition that they just announced.
If Winwing or another competitor comes out with a half-decent $120 throttle and $120 rudder pedals, and releases an XBox-version, then the TM-line has been made fully obsolete.
Note that I also see a large gap for a lower budget FFB option. Basically an upgraded MS FFB2. The first company to fill that gap could make a lot of money.

I don't really disagree, while @Hiob is also correct. The first one to release a descent "desktop FFB3" for less than 200, or a higher-end for less than 300, will win the market hands down.

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[Aapje]

29 minutes ago, Hiob said:

A niche, sure, but (Flight-Sim-)FFB seem to awake from its "Sleeping-Beauty" state recently. Moza and co. wouldn't enter the market, if they wouldn't see a profit in it.

Let me take a stab at guessing/predicting the future.

The actual release of the Moza/WW FFB bases will take longer than we hope, as the software seems to effectively be non-existent at this point. The expo reports are that the one base that people could actually use had no more than damping/resistance. No actual FFB effects. And it was demonstrated with War Thunder, which is a weird choice for an expo where the more hardcore flight simmers attend, that suggests that even the most rudimentary software support didn't yet exist for MSFS, DCS, etc. So neither seem that close to a releasable state, let alone catching up to where the Rhino is.

So once these bases are released, I predict a lot of disappointment, people saying that they are happy that they didn't cancel their Rhino reservation, etc. Actually catching up to the Rhino software can easily take a year or so.

Then there is still the issue that some DCS modules don't support FFB well, all of MSFS doesn't support it natively, etc. So it will probably take another year for these products to support FFB more extensively.

Of course the ultra-enthusiasts either already have the Rhino or would be willing to buy something that works sometimes and still requires a lot of tinkering, but for it to really take off in the mass market, can easily take a bunch of years. For Moza this is a chance to enter the market with something special, and for Winwing this is the chance to change their reputation as just copying Virpil/VKB/etc. But for both of them it is a gamble.

It seems too early to gamble on the lower-end, but If I was these companies, I would already do R&D on a cheaper version, but only release it once the higher-end FFB market proves to be solid enough.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Aapje

[Mr_sukebe]

Moza will have leveraged their knowledge of FFB from racing wheels, which to some seems like a good starting point.

My assumption is that this 1st gen consumer version is effectively their testbed, with which to develop their software and refine hardware choices.

Without significant competition, their margins can be good.

As for the software, best to consider it as “early access”.  It’s bound to improve.

[Hiob]

As I always say. The Hardware (in this case) is secondary (as long as it is of reasonable build quality and power). The key for success lays in the software.
VP is leading here from my point of view - with a reasonable headstart. 

I don't see it become irrelevant anytime soon.

[MAXsenna]

@Aapje Are you talking about FFB effects like recoil, bumpy runway etc? I'm not interested in that at all. I want magnetic brake/force trim in helicopters, stick shaker/wind over wings/trim displacement etc. in aircrafts. All those are already available for my MS SW FFB2, and should be for any other FFB base released.
The freeware MB-339 came with pretty good FFB implementation, except bumpy runways. It was hilarious. The stick would move back and forth when you moved from concrete slab to concrete slab. Can't remember if that was passed on to the pay ware version, but I'm positive it's gone now.

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[rapid]

Strange how peoples perceptions change.

I remember when the community were crying out for a FFB Stick and a lot of people hit back with " You never feel any feed back from Flight sticks when you fly so there is no point in making FFB Sticks"

Strange how the market changes. Moza has the high ground here TM missed the bus here they should have released the AVA AND a FFB variant.

[Mr_sukebe]

I watched a really interesting video yesterday on YouTube about the century fighters.

Within that, they did talk about stick feedback.  The view suggested was that:

- most 1940s aircraft were usually direct linked to control surfaces and so provided plenty of resistance and feedback

- the first aircraft with hydraulics had pretty much no feedback, and were very dead in their feel

- subsequent aircraft deliberately introduced “designed” feedback

[Cgjunk2]

5 hours ago, rapid said:

Strange how peoples perceptions change.

I remember when the community were crying out for a FFB Stick and a lot of people hit back with " You never feel any feed back from Flight sticks when you fly so there is no point in making FFB Sticks"

Strange how the market changes. Moza has the high ground here TM missed the bus here they should have released the AVA AND a FFB variant.

The community is made up of people with a spectrum of real world flight experience or knowledge.  Those that state that airplanes don’t have any feedback really don’t understand what force feedback does.  And often times they think force feedback is the same thing as just rumbling effects.

4 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I watched a really interesting video yesterday on YouTube about the century fighters.

Within that, they did talk about stick feedback.  The view suggested was that:

- most 1940s aircraft were usually direct linked to control surfaces and so provided plenty of resistance and feedback

- the first aircraft with hydraulics had pretty much no feedback, and were very dead in their feel

- subsequent aircraft deliberately introduced “designed” feedback

I think this is what makes consumer-level Moza/Winwing FFB sticks so exciting.   It will allow simmers to feel the differences between airplane designs/eras.  FFB is perfect for simming the aerodynamic loads on control surfaces of cable/pushrod controlled planes, the hydraulic feel of early hyd-boosted planes, and the “engineered/designed” stick-feel of later designs (assuming proper telemetry on the software side).   Just because a real F18 doesn’t transmit actual aero forces to the pilot, doesn’t mean FFB is irrelevant, like some would say.   It would be awesome to experience the changes in stick-feel for different regimes/configurations that are designed into any FCS/FBW airplane.   This is a whole new layer of sim experience for a sim nerd like me!  And don’t get me started about helicopters.  Super excited about all of this.  
 

My only fear is the power of youtube reviewers that might not understand what FFB is, that can easily set back people’s understanding of what FFB does.  I’d hate for FFB hardware and software development to get derailed by opinions of a big customer base that lacks an understanding of what FFB is primarily meant to simulate.  

On a side note…my theory is that Winwing and Moza are co-developing these.  Winwing has the commercial flight simulation expertise, and Moza has the FFB tech expertise.   
 

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by Cgjunk2