Petition to Prioritize MiG-21 Update? Anyone?

[303_Kermit]

On 10/16/2024 at 2:59 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

https://magnitude-3.com/2024/07/13/2024-summer-update/

Our beloved Fishbed, 

You mean Unfinishedbed?

Edited October 19, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

I really want to get this module, the only reason I dont is because how old it is, and it looks like it will never be updated. Its a shame because no one is gonna make another Fishbed, probably ever. 

[Cab]

1 hour ago, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

I really want to get this module, the only reason I dont is because how old it is, and it looks like it will never be updated. Its a shame because no one is gonna make another Fishbed, probably ever. 

A refresh of the Fishbed is next on their list after the Corsair

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

On 11/10/2024 at 1:18 PM, Cab said:

A refresh of the Fishbed is next on their list after the Corsair

Yes, in five years time. Still, if ever happens, I'll get it.

[Cab]

38 minutes ago, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

Yes, in five years time. Still, if ever happens, I'll get it.

That sounds about right.

On the other hand, I have the Fishbed and enjoy it very much on the cold war servers. RECOMMENDED 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 11/10/2024 at 12:17 PM, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

I really want to get this module, the only reason I dont is because how old it is, and it looks like it will never be updated. Its a shame because no one is gonna make another Fishbed, probably ever. 

Not only is a v2.0 scheduled, but even how it is it's a wonderful module worth the while by long. If you like piloting and making stuff the old way, of course, if you're a button clicky and fancy screens guy it's probably not for you. And that's nothing to do with how old it is, this module is more than enjoyable the way it is despite its age.

Have it a go if you haven't already in the trials and see by yourself, don't wait for others to tell you it's bad because it lacks this or that fancy stuff you won't even notice even if it were there.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Ala13_ManOWar

[artao]

On 11/11/2024 at 10:03 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Not only is a v2.0 scheduled, but even how it is it's a wonderful module worth the while by long. If you like piloting and making stuff the old way, of course, if you're a button clicky and fancy screens guy it's probably not for you. And that's nothing to do with how old it is, this module is more than enjoyable the way it is despite its age.

Have it a go if you haven't already in the trials and see by yourself, don't wait for others to tell you it's bad because it lacks this or that fancy stuff you won't even notice even if it were there.

It's fun, but don't be thinking it's particularly realistic. At Full Fidelity prices, you're getting pretty much (at this point) a Flaming Cliffs level module.

[Rudel_chw]

11 minutes ago, artao said:

It's fun, but don't be thinking it's particularly realistic. At Full Fidelity prices, you're getting pretty much (at this point) a Flaming Cliffs level module.

 

Lovely to see how you encourage other users to try the -21 ... even tough you are a fairly new user that seems to have no idea what a FC level module is, so your advice is pretty questionable.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Lovely to see how you encourage other users to try the -21 ... even tough you are a fairly new user that seems to have no idea what a FC level module is, so your advice is pretty questionable.

 

2 hours ago, artao said:

It's fun, but don't be thinking it's particularly realistic. At Full Fidelity prices, you're getting pretty much (at this point) a Flaming Cliffs level module.

I didn't say it was a 100% realistic. "It's fun the way it is", recall that. And, anyway, realistic or not a hundred times better, enjoyable and rewarding to fly with and master than any FC module mate. Even now with 10+ years on top.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:05 AM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Lovely to see how you encourage other users to try the -21 ... even tough you are a fairly new user that seems to have no idea what a FC level module is, so your advice is pretty questionable.

Hyperbole is a poor replacement for insight, indeed.

Yeah, Fishbed needs work, but find me any FM in DCS that is devoid of inaccuracies. At some point, you have to accept that DCS is a video game and that is that. And besides that, there's not THAT much wrong with the Fishbed. Just long standing issues at low speed and avionics that need addressing.

At this point, passive aggressive posts replete with plenty of '...'s and what not aren't exactly going to speed up Mag3's development.

We wait, it's all we can do.

 

Edited November 21, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Volator]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Hyperbole is a poor replacement for insight, indeed.

Yeah, Fishbed needs work, but find me any FM in DCS that is devoid of inaccuracies. At some point, you have to accept that DCS is a video game and that is that. And besides that, there's not THAT much wrong with the Fishbed. Just long standing issues at low speed and avionics that need addressing.

At this point, passive aggressive posts replete with plenty of '...'s and what not aren't exactly going to speed up Mag3's development.

We wait, it's all we can do.

 

Well said.

Allow me to quote myself when I say, with all its imperfections this MiG-21bis is the best MiG-21 we currently have in DCS. Fly it and enjoy it until there is a better one available, that's all we can do. Estimated 80-90% of all DCS players do not care about real procedures and realism anyway - or more precisely they raise hell when the dingdong switch is not simulated correctly, but then do autostarts on the usual MP servers and take-off on the ramp and taxiway; for that crowd the MiG-21bis is perfect as it is anyway.

[303_Kermit]

On 11/21/2024 at 5:15 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Hyperbole is a poor replacement for insight, indeed.

Yeah, Fishbed needs work, but find me any FM in DCS that is devoid of inaccuracies. At some point, you have to accept that DCS is a video game and that is that. And besides that, there's not THAT much wrong with the Fishbed. Just long standing issues at low speed and avionics that need addressing.

At this point, passive aggressive posts replete with plenty of '...'s and what not aren't exactly going to speed up Mag3's development.

We wait, it's all we can do.

 

These way you may explain every incompetence, negligence, and underdevelopment.
We're talking about worst quality module in dcs. Most neglected one. With bugs that exist since the very beginning, and were never corrected. 

"there's not THAT much wrong with the Fishbed" - basically apart from moving switches in cockpit - the plane has nothing what is modelled and finished

-systems? non existent. I posted couple times what is wrong.
-flight model? serious flaws (if you dare to fly high and fast you'll easily guess what is wrong - for arcade players WT style it's irrelevant, so I'm guessing mr Fishbed is arcade player, or hopes that the rest of us are.)
-damage model? well... tell me about all those MiG-21 flying fighting and landing without one wing.
-3D model? - that's funny also. If you brake wing, the damage is visible for you from the cockpit, but from outside - for your colleague on your wing you're a allright! Another case is, that cockpit dimensions and proportions are wrong, and it's obvious for everyone who at least once sat inside MiG-21. 

A-10 was refreshed, rebuilt, remade couple times times
K-50 was refreshed, rebuilt, remade couple times times
F-5E-3 was refreshed, rebuilt, remade couple times times
Even F-15C from FC3 became new cockpit
MiG-29 from FC3 became new FM (and it's great!)

MiG-21 @by Magnitude is a joke. It's revolting that it's being still sold. It's not even good enough to be a part of WT right now. Name one module in DCS which is in similar condition as MiG-21. All of them are light years forward in every single simulation aspect.

Edited November 24, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

MiG-21 @by Magnitude is a joke. It's revolting that it's being still sold.

 

Wonder exactly what you expect to achieve with this post of yours?  it really puzzles me what may be your motivation, what do you gain?  never mind, don't answer, will just forget your post and go fly instead.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

5 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

-flight model? serious flaws (if you dare to fly high and fast you'll easily guess what is wrong - for arcade players WT style it's irrelevant, so I'm guessing mr Fishbed is arcade player, or hopes that the rest of us are.)
 

Yes, I got all the high scores. I am unbeatable at Hydro Thunder and Daytona 2.

I mean, if you want to strawman? I'll just reply, in turn, with silliness.

Edited November 25, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[303_Kermit]

21 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Wonder exactly what you expect to achieve with this post of yours?  it really puzzles me what may be your motivation, what do you gain?  never mind, don't answer, will just forget your post and go fly instead.

First step to solve a problem is to realize that there is one.

Saying "It's alright" - never caused any changes. Start seeing a problem. That's the beginning.

 

Edited November 25, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Maxthrust]

M3's monopoly on the Mig-21 sucks. ED should put M3 on notice; either support the product by keeping it up to date or let another dev redo it properly. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 11/25/2024 at 8:54 PM, Maxthrust said:

M3's monopoly on the Mig-21 sucks. ED should put M3 on notice; either support the product by keeping it up to date or let another dev redo it properly. 

Problem: They're putting pressure on them to finish the F4U, of which they also have a contractual agreement with ED to work on.

It's really a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Art-J]

I don't see the point of fighting one set of silly exaggerations with opposite, equally silly set of exaggerations.

Neither A-10 nor Ka-50 nor F-5E were "refreshed, rebuilt, remade couple times times", unless one counts every minor bug fix or texture tweak as "remake". In such case, one should say MiG-21 also got remade a couple of times, because that's what actually happened with both cockpit and external 3D models and texturing. That's why none of oldest custom skins and cockpit mods are compatible with MiG now.

Ancient giant hitbox-based damage model (and related flight model shenanigans) applies to all DCS aircraft but warbirds and maybe Heatblur products, so flying happily without a wing is not only a MiG-21 issue.

"Realizing there's a problem" - M3 devs themselves know it all too well, that's why they've been hinting about more thorough refresh for last few years. Granted, the fact that they don't seem to have sufficent manpower and financial resources to pull it off in near future, if ever, is a separate problem.

ED shouldn't and couldn't "put M3 on notice" either. First, because they struggle with maintenance and updating of their own oldest modules, so they're hardly an authority here. Second, because module IP and source code belongs to M3, so it's not up to ED to tell anyone what and when to do with it further.

Last but not least, there's a more general problem of what DCS players should realistically expect as a "shelf-life" of digital product and what level of support one should expect for free. MiG, being the very first 3rd party module ever, developed from a private mod, is just a very outdated product compared to today's standards. But since closing this gap nowadays would most probably require a complete re-write of its systems and flight model, it's stupid to expect such endeavout being done for anything less than half of new module price - at least.

The only thing I agree with naysayers is - MiG should still be available for sale "as is", but for discounted price reflecting its current all-around state.

At least that's what ED used to do with all aging modules back before 2017-ish (?) when they decided to bring all prices up to comparable level without considering if products represented the same fidelity. The current pricing policy is rather anti-consumer in this regard, but hey, it's their business and their rules.

[Volator]

I guess most people here voicing their desire for a good up-to-date MiG 21 would happily pay full price for a completely new MiG-21 2.0. The problem isn't that, it's that M3 seem to lack the manpower to provide it in a reasonable time frame.

I also doubt that M3 has a monopoly on a MiG-21 in general, it's just that no other dev team is interested in doing one. Unless there isn't a new dev team emerging with a MiG-21 as their project, we're stuck with what we have right now. One could hope for the MiG-17 devs to take up a MiG-21 later, but they have yet to deliver their long announced -17 and prove that they know how to make a DCS module.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, Volator said:

I guess most people here voicing their desire for a good up-to-date MiG 21 would happily pay full price for a completely new MiG-21 2.0. The problem isn't that, it's that M3 seem to lack the manpower to provide it in a reasonable time frame.

I also doubt that M3 has a monopoly on a MiG-21 in general, it's just that no other dev team is interested in doing one. Unless there isn't a new dev team emerging with a MiG-21 as their project, we're stuck with what we have right now. One could hope for the MiG-17 devs to take up a MiG-21 later, but they have yet to deliver their long announced -17 and prove that they know how to make a DCS module.

Honestly, given the time I put into the MiG-21 and the fact that it was almost always my go-to up until the Phantom, I'd consider parting with some for a 2.0. I'd really have to see what's included.

And also, I'm thinking if Deka wanted to make a J-7 or F-7 of some variety, ED wouldn't stop them.

[Maxthrust]

15 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Problem: They're putting pressure on them to finish the F4U, of which they also have a contractual agreement with ED to work on.

It's really a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Where are you getting this? If they don't have the capacity to support one module then they should not be releasing another one. I couldn't care less about the F4U but I am already feeling bad for the people who are waiting for it...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

4 hours ago, Maxthrust said:

Where are you getting this? If they don't have the capacity to support one module then they should not be releasing another one. I couldn't care less about the F4U but I am already feeling bad for the people who are waiting for it...

Oh, you know.

Magnitude 3.

[BIGNEWY]

folks please keep to the rules, discussion should be on topic and about DCS. 

post's that break the rules will be removed. 

Thank you 

[303_Kermit]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

folks please keep to the rules, discussion should be on topic and about DCS. 

post's that break the rules will be removed. 

Thank you 

See guys?
@MiG21bisFishbedL @Art-J @Rudel_chw

A drops drill the rocks... Somebody did notices the problem and... in strange way Agreed with me

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

See guys?
@MiG21bisFishbedL @Art-J @Rudel_chw

A drops drill the rocks... Somebody did notices the problem and... in strange way Agreed with me

I can raise concerns with the team, both Nineline and myself have already. But I can not speak for the third party, if they want to share news they will. 

Keep the discussion friendly and on topic, our rules can be found at the top of the forum.

thank you