Modern Era Campaign Woes and Recommendations

[Jetliner]

Sup, gang. 

So I've recently really wanted to participate in the "modern" era but I don't exactly have time to join the military and figure out what some of the voice over stuff is.  So far I've tried Baltic Dragon's Gamblers campaign (which I loved up until this point) but got to Mission 3 and cant even spot the first targets.  TGP doesn't seem to behave (its user error, I know) and I sure as hell cant see them from 18,000ft visually.  Once my wingman takes everyone out - we are given some military jargon (9 line) for the next target that I have no idea how to decipher so I just quit the mission and tried Reflected's new Arctic Thunder.  Got to Mission 2 and we are forced to do all the tests of a normal F16.  Don't get me wrong, its cool - but as I've gotten older I don't have time to learn about 9 lines, how to enter them and how to run every test on an F16.  Big props to the campaign builders who have sunk so much time and research into these projects but slowly I'm realizing that the depth just isn't for me anymore.  

I hate War Thunder as it's far too gamey, and the online features in DCS lack a narrative that make me want to come back for another sortie.  Am I just a lost player at this point?  Anyone have any recommendations for some less "hardcore" but still realistic campaigns or do I just need to avoid the modern era if I don't have time to master it?

[MAXsenna]

Sup, gang. 
So I've recently really wanted to participate in the "modern" era but I don't exactly have time to join the military and figure out what some of the voice over stuff is.  So far I've tried Baltic Dragon's Gamblers campaign (which I loved up until this point) but got to Mission 3 and cant even spot the first targets.  TGP doesn't seem to behave (its user error, I know) and I sure as hell cant see them from 18,000ft visually.  Once my wingman takes everyone out - we are given some military jargon (9 line) for the next target that I have no idea how to decipher so I just quit the mission and tried Reflected's new Arctic Thunder.  Got to Mission 2 and we are forced to do all the tests of a normal F16.  Don't get me wrong, its cool - but as I've gotten older I don't have time to learn about 9 lines, how to enter them and how to run every test on an F16.  Big props to the campaign builders who have sunk so much time and research into these projects but slowly I'm realizing that the depth just isn't for me anymore.  

I hate War Thunder as it's far too gamey, and the online features in DCS lack a narrative that make me want to come back for another sortie.  Am I just a lost player at this point?  Anyone have any recommendations for some less "hardcore" but still realistic campaigns or do I just need to avoid the modern era if I don't have time to master it?

Apologies for asking, but have you actually done any training missions?
What you can do, when you come across a hurdle, is to see if that particular bit, (whether it's a censor, weapon, procedure, JTAC, communication, navigation issue), you check if threre is a corresponding training missions, and most likely a description in the manual, (you know where they are?). A Chuck's Guide and definitely some YouTuber showing it. Whatever way you find best is best for you.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Jetliner]

12 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Apologies for asking, but have you actually done any training missions?
What you can do, when you come across a hurdle, is to see if that particular bit, (whether it's a censor, weapon, procedure, JTAC, communication, navigation issue), you check if threre is a corresponding training missions, and most likely a description in the manual, (you know where they are?). A Chuck's Guide and definitely some YouTuber showing it. Whatever way you find best is best for you.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

I would say I know enough to be dangerous in the F16, but would never claim to be study level.  Most of the time I like to enjoy the campaigns to learn the aircraft but I can see that as I step into this era this is clearly no longer a viable strategy and I dont see many (if any) training type campaigns out there.  I dont have the time (or desire, really) to read the manuals for hours - no shade on anyone who does, I just dont have as much time to game as I used to so it is nice to get the gaming and learning done all at once.  Either with training campaigns, or with missions that work you into the features as you get through the missions.  If these dont exist for this era I may either wait until they do or just hold off on delving into these all together.

[MAXsenna]

15 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

I dont see many (if any) training type campaigns out there. 

Yeah, they don't really grow on trees unfortunately. Would seem to me that whenever a new module was released, it would be a good opportunity to release one.  

[Furiz]

Modern aircraft are more complex than those from earlier eras, many systems and procedures to learn but for me that is what makes them fun. If you don't mind learning I can only suggest getting into one part of the jet at a time.

For example, learn navigation (enter new waypoints, markpoints, then learn MGRS coordinates, edit those etc...) learn how to manipulate waypoints. When you get how to work with those you can tackle with JTAC. 9 line is just info which is not hard to decipher once you do some practice on the subject.

Same goes with everything else in modern era jets, I'd say it takes some learning and practice to get to campaign ready level. You don't have to spend months learning like real life Viper pilots do since we can just reset the mission and they can't.

I guess that complexity is what makes the difference between DCS and other aircraft games.

[Volator]

3 hours ago, Jetliner said:

Anyone have any recommendations for some less "hardcore" but still realistic campaigns or do I just need to avoid the modern era if I don't have time to master it?

Short answer:

I'd say go with a less complex era, try Cold War. Procedures and terminology are a little bit more straightforward there. Try the F-4 and Reflected's"MiG Killer campaign" for example, or the F-14 with the "Zone 5" campaign maybe (Disclaimer: I haven't flown neither of them yet, but the description and the videos I have seen tell me they might be good for that era.)

 

Long answer:

Flying military jets in a military scenario IS a demanding and complex thing, and you really do have to learn A LOT in order to do it in a full-blown scenario. You just can't jump into an F-16, read up a few things and then fly realistic CAS or OCA in a modern scenario.

I do understand that some do not want to or cannot put in the time that is needed for that, but what I do not understand is that some people still want to play fighter pilot "the real deal" then and go for DCS that aims at being the most realistic and procedural military flight sim currently available (excluding one well-known, but aged and only really single-plane alternative) without putting in at least a bit of the efforts that real fighter pilots have to put in. There's a disconnect for me.

Please don't take this aimed at you personally, it's just a general observation I have made over the past years.

But still, there is light for you: If you want to keep going for modern, you now have found three aspects that you need to work on: Read up on the realistic F-16 checks, TGP employment and how to interpret a 9-Liner, then try it again. When you come to the next obstacle, read up on that, and so on and so forth. In the end, you will have aquired enough knowledge to competently fly modern missions in the F-16. It is a long process though, it doesn't happen over night, and yes, it is a lot of hard work. But it's worth the effort if you want to simulate being a fighter pilot as realistically as possible. There is not really an in-between here.

And no, this doesn't equal joining the military to do this. Real military fighter pilots also have a lot of military stuff chores to do besides learning the flying, the procedures, the jet. We don't have to do that. Yes, we have our jobs, our family and everything else instead, and it's a fact that we do have less time to study the fighter pilot stuff than the real pilots, but: "You can [do] it if you really want. You must try, try and try, try and try. You'll succeed at last." The alternative would indeed be WT, and I'm writing this without any judgement!

So, long story short: Try Cold War if you still wanna play "jet fighter pilot" realistically and need a slightly lower bar. I fly Cold War exclusively, and I love it.

[=DROOPY=]

I for one.. completely understand what he's saying.  I really wish that a training syllabus comparable to what is offered for the A-10, would be offered for other modules. 

I don't mind reading at all. But if the opportunity presents itself, I learn much quicker by *doing*, and will almost always choose that method. 

[draconus]

On 12/15/2024 at 6:52 AM, Jetliner said:

I hate War Thunder as it's far too gamey, and the online features in DCS lack a narrative that make me want to come back for another sortie.  Am I just a lost player at this point?  Anyone have any recommendations for some less "hardcore" but still realistic campaigns or do I just need to avoid the modern era if I don't have time to master it?

Sounds like The Georgian War for F-15C (Flaming Cliffs) should give you what you want. You better know your BVR game and how to play with the radar though.

[Mike_CK]

Well, Baltic Dragon and Reflected campaigns are the two most complex ones out there. I’m with you on the F-16 start up…but if you hit space bar after the first prompt, you can cold start it yourself. Didn’t matter for me b/c his missions are over 2 hours long and I only get about 1.5 hours.

The F-16 campaigns are all pretty tough (meaning lots of realism and requirements that you know your stuff) 

If you are willing to put some work into the F/A-18, there are plenty of “mid level” campaigns for you to learn on. Persian Lion is good but I’d grab Sedlo’s “Bold Cheerah” off of the user files. It’s one of the best campaigns I’ve played and it’s free. Air to air refueling is optional (you really should learn to do it) and it uses enough of the Hornets capabilities to be fun without pretending like you’re actually a trained aviator.

But I’ll be honest with you…to enjoy any campaign, you are going to have to learn the aircraft. The whole POINT of DCs and high fidelity aircraft is so you can experience the aircraft itself. If you just want to blow stuff up, play war thunder or try and FC3 modules. In DCS, the combat is just the background…it’s the canvas on which the art is placed. It’s what provides the context for you to be operating the aircraft; but it’s leaning how the aircraft operates and experiencing what it’s like to operate it in a combat environment that makes DCS stand out.

Learn the jet. Learn how to operate the weapons systems of course…but learn how to enter waypoints, use the SA page, air to air refuel and all the rest. As for the terminology…most you can figure out but if not, just ask

[falcon_120]

Very short answer, for any complex system or procedure you want to achieve, youll find a 60 seconds up to 5-45 min tutorial in youtube explaining it from the bare minimum to an in depth explanation, in your example how to use a 9 line in the viper. Why don't you try that? i leave you what you need below:

-https://youtu.be/4hCkwdAL0sc?si=MJdhpfJsxFzg4yii

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Gambit21]

On 12/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, Jetliner said:

Sup, gang. 

So I've recently really wanted to participate in the "modern" era but I don't exactly have time to join the military and figure out what some of the voice over stuff is.  So far I've tried Baltic Dragon's Gamblers campaign (which I loved up until this point) but got to Mission 3 and cant even spot the first targets.  TGP doesn't seem to behave (its user error, I know) and I sure as hell cant see them from 18,000ft visually.  Once my wingman takes everyone out - we are given some military jargon (9 line) for the next target that I have no idea how to decipher so I just quit the mission and tried Reflected's new Arctic Thunder.  Got to Mission 2 and we are forced to do all the tests of a normal F16.  Don't get me wrong, its cool - but as I've gotten older I don't have time to learn about 9 lines, how to enter them and how to run every test on an F16.  Big props to the campaign builders who have sunk so much time and research into these projects but slowly I'm realizing that the depth just isn't for me anymore.  

I hate War Thunder as it's far too gamey, and the online features in DCS lack a narrative that make me want to come back for another sortie.  Am I just a lost player at this point?  Anyone have any recommendations for some less "hardcore" but still realistic campaigns or do I just need to avoid the modern era if I don't have time to master it?

I'm in a similar boat, as a content creator/mission designer I don't have much stick-time, and when I do have it I don't want to spend time learning about another computer while I'm on my computer. Plus there's just other things to do and get done in life. Some can't relate to this...don't let it bother you.

You'll also discover different build philosophies with different content creators. I suggest moving to an earlier era as someone else suggested, perhaps the Tomcat or F-4, or F-5.   

 

[Jetliner]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I'm in a similar boat, as a content creator/mission designer I don't have much stick-time, and when I do have it I don't want to spend time learning about another computer while I'm on my computer. Plus there's just other things to do and get done in life. Some can't relate to this...don't let it bother you.

You'll also discover different build philosophies with different content creators. I suggest moving to an earlier era as someone else suggested, perhaps the Tomcat or F-4, or F-5.   

 

Its nice to see some people popping in sharing my concerns.  Definitely makes me feel less alone in the DCS world haha.  We don't want ZERO realism but a lot of us have grown up in our loves and don't have the time for the ULTRA realistic stuff anymore.  No shade on the younger crowd with a bit more time on their hands but I don't want to feel like my hobby is growing away from me either haha.  I'm sure that time will come - but for now you and a few others in this thread have given me hope.
 

On 12/20/2024 at 10:19 PM, Mike_CK said:

Well, Baltic Dragon and Reflected campaigns are the two most complex ones out there. I’m with you on the F-16 start up…but if you hit space bar after the first prompt, you can cold start it yourself. Didn’t matter for me b/c his missions are over 2 hours long and I only get about 1.5 hours.

The F-16 campaigns are all pretty tough (meaning lots of realism and requirements that you know your stuff) 

If you are willing to put some work into the F/A-18, there are plenty of “mid level” campaigns for you to learn on. Persian Lion is good but I’d grab Sedlo’s “Bold Cheerah” off of the user files. It’s one of the best campaigns I’ve played and it’s free. Air to air refueling is optional (you really should learn to do it) and it uses enough of the Hornets capabilities to be fun without pretending like you’re actually a trained aviator.

But I’ll be honest with you…to enjoy any campaign, you are going to have to learn the aircraft. The whole POINT of DCs and high fidelity aircraft is so you can experience the aircraft itself. If you just want to blow stuff up, play war thunder or try and FC3 modules. In DCS, the combat is just the background…it’s the canvas on which the art is placed. It’s what provides the context for you to be operating the aircraft; but it’s leaning how the aircraft operates and experiencing what it’s like to operate it in a combat environment that makes DCS stand out.

Learn the jet. Learn how to operate the weapons systems of course…but learn how to enter waypoints, use the SA page, air to air refuel and all the rest. As for the terminology…most you can figure out but if not, just ask

I appreciate this post a lot.  I totally understand and will adapt my view of DCS accordingly for sure.  I guess my real gripe is that its simulated just enough to be frustrating but not enough to feel rewarding.  Sure you can run all these tests and maybe something fails with battle damage but its nothing like real life.  Real world failures can be far more sinister, or catastrophic and we dont have any of that.  If we dont pre-flight properly, or if we try to make passes we shouldn't and take some ground fire - none of it really matters because most of our aircraft are really just hollow voids shy of a sound effect and some pictures of damage that spawn in after.  That means when I do all this work having to start the aircraft or follow very precise instructions in a campaign and I do it wrong - its a real peek behind the curtain because none of that matters and I feel like its just wasting my time trying to simulate something that doesnt exist.  Point taken on campaigns, as an update I've read 1/2 the F16 manual and have realized how uneducated I was on it.  I no longer feel intermediate on it and know that I need even more time in the books.  Its fun to learn - but I would enjoy a couple more campaigns focused on "fun" or even some that lump the learning into the play time.

[SharpeXB]

DCS is like a one step at a time kinda thing. Jumping right into a campaign especially an advanced one would be getting in deep very quickly. The thing about the sim being so complex is that it makes missions, which in other games might seem too simple, actually challenging and rewarding. So it’s not necessary to go with full campaign in order to get a lot out of the game. Some of the campaigns are still challenging for experienced players too. I am amazed myself given the fact that I also have such limited time for games in general, how much I have accomplished in DCS over the years. Just one step at a time.

Edited December 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Jayhawk1971]

Baltic Dragon made an excellent training campaign for the A-10C (II) called "Iron Flag Part 1" (hopefully, part 2 will be released at some point soon). Also, a training campaign for the F/A-18C is planned (prequel to both Raven One campaigns, again with Jello/ Hoser). So things are happening.

Regarding "realism". The first ever flight sim game I played was Microprose's F-15 Strike Eagle (1984), where I launched small triangles at larger triangles and bombed squares. Back then I would have killed to have this level of fidelity we currently have (WRT to systems-modelling, procedures and graphics). I do have a life as well as many more hobbies, too, yet I still manage to "keep up" with the modules I own.  Granted, having 40 years of continuous "experience" with flight sim games does help, as I can focus on the specifics without having to worry much about basics.

Also, and I can't stress this enough, using YouTube tutorials is a huge time-saver. You run into an issue (or need a reminder of a sub-system function you forgot), chances are someone already made a video about it addressing that issue.

IMO. one of the biggest issue with DCS is that it is a "study-level survey sim", and jumping between modules is challenging. Especially the "flying calculators"   like the Hornet, Viper, A-10C and F-15E are just different enough in their switchology that it takes a while to get back into.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[Mike_CK]

There is nothing you can do about the lack of immersion resulting from the fact that it isn’t real. BUT…while I’m not a fan of it, you CAN turn on random failures which does just that. You can pick which ones can occur and the chance it will happen. You can have your engine or hydraulics go, your INS system, fuel, etc etc. I don’t want to spend my 1.5 hours on a mission that I can’t complete because by INS/GPS went out. But if you want to make the bit tests and stuff matter, that’s your ticket

That said, I don’t bother with Bit tests and testing emergency lights and such. But I do get a lot of immersion and enjoyment from starting up the aircraft and all the systems. I had tried for 15 years to get into a flight sim and I never could. I was just a guy controlling a computer screen trying to shoot down computer planes. But then I tried DCS and I realized the immersion I was missing was the aircraft itself. Needing to flip the right switches and push the right buttons 

Yeah, anything hard is frustrating. But that’s what makes it so enjoyable. The first time you get the jet started, the first time you successful arm, use the TPOD and put an LGB on target; knowing that is how it is done in the real jet. Refueling as well.

For me though, the big “burst” or immersion came when I was able to run  VR at a level where the graphics were really good (my old system the VR resolution had to be lower. Even with my new system and the Oculus Quest 3, it takes some study and experimenting to get things where you want. For example: the biggest jump in visual improvement  came from raising my encode bitrate. I’m messing with sliders and PIxel Density but THAT was the key.)

VR is a science and art itself but once you get it set up and can get a smooth 36fps (at least) with good resolution, it’s eye watering. I can’t play in 2D anymore. It’s the sensation of being in the aircraft combined with actually operating the aircraft. You can’t get any more immersion than that.