Landing the Phantom??

[Semaphore]

I can take off, fly about no issues with the Phantom but landing - its gotta be the hardest task of all to do. 

Whats the optimum weight for landing.. or better still, does anyone know what fuel levels are the optimum if the F4 is clean, with stores etc.  I know thats not an exact science but muight help me get used to what i am wsorking with to master landings instead of fighting the stick to get weight on wheels.

Thanks

 

[razo+r]

You don't really care about weight. Generally the lighter the better but there is no optimum weight. You just fly the optimum AoA, and the speed will be the result of your weight paired with the optimum AoA.

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/procedures/landing/visual.html

[Volator]

The Dash-1 charts always show 46.000 lb as the maximum desirable landing weight, which is pretty much our F-4E without any external loads right after take-off, so you can basically land a clean (i.e. no stores, but with pylons) but fully fueled F-4. Speeds will be rather high then though, around 170-180KIAS, and my experience with the HB F-4E is that it's better to fly a little faster and not "on-speed" to have some margin to work with above the runway. The manual says a stable approach is flown at 700fpm descent rate and will result in a 500fpm touchdown, but then Jester will call you names for your landing skills, so having a few extra knots to work with and flaring nicely at touchdown will give you his appreciation.

[thodre]

On 1/6/2025 at 5:13 PM, Volator said:

so having a few extra knots to work with and flaring nicely at touchdown will give you his appreciation.

Exactly this! Give yourself a bit wiggle room, don't be too slow. Jester will love you for it

 

"This landing was almost as beautiful as Meg Ryan..."

"Yep, if the runway was bread, you'd be the butter..."

"Man with a landing like this you could park it in suburbia..."

"I hope the squad was watching..."

"Are... are we down yet? I didn't feel a thing..."

 

Which ones did i forget?

[Nealius]

My before landing checklist includes turning off ICS volume so I can fly by the book without Jester's whining. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Personally I take a similar approach with the F-4 to landing a tail-dragger: right before touchdown I look outside to my left or right and judge my descent visually, for a smooth touchdown.
And yes, staying just a smidge above "on-speed" definitely helps because you sink like a rock the moment you're even a tad too slow. I basically go by sound of the AoA gauge and park the furthest edge of the horizontal gunsight projector on the far edge of the runway (a bit hard to explain this properly without training aids) . I find this giving me a pretty decent approach angle.

*edit*
Did you read Victory's post about "mastering your first flight"?

 

Edited January 8 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
added link and fixed a typo

[Gunfreak]

I find it very easy to land, far easier then the little ballerina F16. 

The chute also means you generally don't have to worry about landing a bit too fast or a bit to far in on the runway. That chute is really nice to have. I do sometimes get comments from Jester, but he has a glass ass. So don't pay him much attention. You don't need to pay for the service of the aircraft, tax payers do. So a bit abuse isn't a big deal.

[Semaphore]

I think i have solved my issue...  my control bind for trimiming up needing rebinding as DCS was registering inputs intermitently if at all hence i have been fighting the stick.  Since rebinding the trim controls the register as required and makes trimming the Phantom much easier and mewans i can now fly hands off.

 

Finers crossed but i am going to mark this as solved

 

I'm much happier now

Edited January 8 by Semaphore

[SuperKermit]

What is the recommended pattern altitude? Didn’t find that in the manual. 

[felixx75]

13 minutes ago, SuperKermit said:

What is the recommended pattern altitude? Didn’t find that in the manual. 

https://youtu.be/vhIj_udzGUY?si=z-yOxqH7rrxjtlCe

[Kalasnkova74]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:57 AM, thodre said:

Exactly this! Give yourself a bit wiggle room, don't be too slow. Jester will love you for it

 

"This landing was almost as beautiful as Meg Ryan..."

"Yep, if the runway was bread, you'd be the butter..."

"Man with a landing like this you could park it in suburbia..."

"I hope the squad was watching..."

"Are... are we down yet? I didn't feel a thing..."

 

Which ones did i forget?

“….(silence)…..”

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 1/10/2025 at 12:27 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

“….(silence)…..”

I'd think such a landing is a normal landing, or at least a 'satisfactory' one. My last landing in the Phantom was met with silence by Jester, but I was pretty happy with it because I was able to keep the nose wheel off the ground for quite a while after touchdown 

[Derbysieger]

On 1/7/2025 at 6:57 PM, thodre said:

Which ones did i forget?

I got "Dude, nice landing. Dude, where's my car?" recently

There's some more that seem to be new but I can't remember right now.

 

Edited January 11 by Derbysieger

[G.J.S]

Find Jester quite funny, but his ar5e doesn’t belong in an F-4. Think he comes from a 737 or something. 

 

Accepted technique was on tone for last 200 ish feet alt before touchdown, and NO FLARE. The initial kiss of the runway will scrub a few knots off due to the firm arrival without flaring.

Of course, should the runway be extremely long - or a large base with an airshow, or a Jag base (lol), then there should be so much runway left that you can flare and grease it on to your hearts content.

But if length may be an issue (giggedy), then the normal landing was as described - very firm.

She has naval bones after all . . . 

[Zabuzard]

Find Jester quite funny, but his ar5e doesn’t belong in an F-4. Think he comes from a 737 or something. 
 
Accepted technique was on tone for last 200 ish feet alt before touchdown, and NO FLARE. The initial kiss of the runway will scrub a few knots off due to the firm arrival without flaring.
Of course, should the runway be extremely long - or a large base with an airshow, or a Jag base (lol), then there should be so much runway left that you can flare and grease it on to your hearts content.
But if length may be an issue (giggedy), then the normal landing was as described - very firm.
She has naval bones after all . . . 

FYI Jester is not tuned for landing with a flare. We compute the physical force that acts on his body after the gear and OLEOs absorbed parts of them, this is what he measures and comments on.

If you watch any of our Phantom SMEs do the landing, they do it the way they did it back in the days - no flare. And Jester always says it was a perfect landing when they do it. You need to maintain your AoA but also the sinking rate. Remember that the engines are slightly tilted, so playing with power at these AoAs will also affect your sinking rate.

Obviously these people are experts, but the point is that it is rather the lack of skill executing the proper landing perfectly as virtual pilot if you _need_ to flare in order to do a smooth landing that Jester is fine with. It absolutely can be done without.

If you found a technique that works for you thats great and no one will judge

Practice, practice, practice :)

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

FYI Jester is not tuned for landing with a flare. We compute the physical force that acts on his body after the gear and OLEOs absorbed parts of them, this is what he measures and comments on.

If you watch any of our Phantom SMEs do the landing, they do it the way they did it back in the days - no flare. And Jester always says it was a perfect landing when they do it. You need to maintain your AoA but also the sinking rate. Remember that the engines are slightly tilted, so playing with power at these AoAs will also affect your sinking rate.

Obviously these people are experts, but the point is that it is rather the lack of skill executing the proper landing perfectly as virtual pilot if you _need_ to flare in order to do a smooth landing that Jester is fine with. It absolutely can be done without.

If you found a technique that works for you thats great and no one will judge

Practice, practice, practice
 

Good to know, if only you were around when I converted onto type in 1986 - 87 .

Edited January 12 by G.J.S

[Volator]

1 hour ago, G.J.S said:

Accepted technique was on tone for last 200 ish feet alt before touchdown, and NO FLARE. The initial kiss of the runway will scrub a few knots off due to the firm arrival without flaring

Yes, so a GAF F-4 driver also once told me. He also said: "The F-4 was designed for carrier landings, so we land it that way". That said, it may be effective alright, but it doesn't look stylish and always hurts a little inside to see an aircraft smashed onto the runway like that

[Kalasnkova74]

For a challenge, try to achieve a “Jester-positive” ILS landing. Managing on-speed AoA and glide slope alignment gets interesting! 

[Iron Sights]

I’ll use a helicopter term here; settle with power. That seems to work even with heavier loadouts.

[jojyrocks]

Just like landing the Mig 21, what I observe is, landing with power on, this is, not cut the power to idle is the way to go, until you touch down. Works for me. Aerobraking the Phantom is the real challenge, like how those demo pilots do it, but it is doable if you can master to land with power on and only cut idle once the wheels touch the ground.

Edited February 8 by jojyrocks

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yes it is tricky. Only recently have I been able to aerobrake reliably. It’s the same with the F-5 really: it can be done but it requires some finesse and a lot of practice.