Dogfighting is really getting me annoyed

[Alphagamer1981]

So I have pretty much had to watch tutorials on how to do everything, and I have pretty much got everything nailed except the dogfighting part. All the youtube guides just don't seem to work for me and I have followed them exactly, the correct rpm and throttle settings, yet I'm always getting the same problem. In all the video guides i see, they always manage to keep enemy fighters in front of them and follow them with ease on turns and take pot shots like shooting fish in a barrel. However when i follow it exactly, I get them outrunning me on turns and I can't keep up with them and end up always losing energy and getting stuck in a stall roll type situation. Then they spend 90% of the time on my tail and I can't ever shake them off because 1. There are next to no guides on how to shake off an enemy from your tail, and 2. because im stuck at low speeds, im then having to fly straight to build up speed by which they shoot my ass off every time. Its starting to get so frustrating and annoying now, that I'm actually losing interest in playing because the guides make it look so easy and even when i follow them, it just doesn't work for me. I even tried asking on this forum to join someone to help me and practice get my skill up and my post got ignored. 

[Hiob]

Hard to tell without a video, but I assume that you are not patient enough and try too hard to pull them into your crosshair. (and bleed a lot of energy in the process)

Try to trail turn with them (meaning keeping them on your 12 above the canopy bow, aka flying a bigger circle with them) and wait until you are behind them. (You want to shoot them from behind and not from atop). Be patient.

The other point, well yes once an enemy is behind you, you’re basically fucked. That’s the whole point of it. You might try to jink (you should!) and try to make them overshoot, but that’s close to impossible with a warbird. (if you have a way more powerful aircraft, you could try to outclimb the enemy but that makes you easy to shoot at……so)

The Strategy for winning is, see them first, be higher and faster. Have the moment of surprise on your sight. 

Edited April 20 by Hiob

[Hiob]

Here’s another picture that may help. Imagine a big circle on the ground, you and your adversary are 90 degree apart. What you wanna do is move along the circumference faster then him. But what you don’t want to do is, cut the circle and point directly at him (unless you are 100% sure you can make a snapshot). That will bleed your energy fast, make you slow and ultimately loose the fight.

Edited April 20 by Hiob

[Ghost79]

In the Spitfire, against pretty much everything (except I-16) all you need to do is - Turn.  The Spit will out turn anything and is your friend both offensive and defensive.  Bandit on your 6?  just perform a tight turn and he wont be able to keep with you.  If he carries on trying to turn with you, eventually you will turn the tables.  Spit doesn't climb or dive as well as the other WW2 aircraft, its all about the "turn".

Edited April 20 by Ghost79

[Hiob]

Just now, Ghost79 said:

In the Spitfire, against pretty much everything (except I-16) all you need to do is - Turn.  The Spit will out turn anything and is your friend both offensive and defensive.  Bandit on your 6?  just perform a tight turn and he wont be able to keep with you.  If he carries on try to turn with you, eventually you will turn the tables.  Spit doesn't climb or dive as well as the other WW2 aircraft, its all about the "turn".

Yes, but even with the Spitfire, when you turn too tight, too soon, you will bleed energy like crazy and can still loose the fight. You can outturn everything, yes, but still need a proper technique doing it.

[Alphagamer1981]

20 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Hard to tell without a video, but I assume that you are not patient enough and try too hard to pull them into your crosshair. (and bleed a lot of energy in the process)

Try to trail turn with them (meaning keeping them on your 12 above the canopy bow, aka flying a bigger circle with them) and wait until you are behind them. (You want to shoot them from behind and not from atop). Be patient.

The other point, well yes once an enemy is behind you, you’re basically fucked. That’s the whole point of it. You might try to jink (you should!) and try to make them overshoot, but that’s close to impossible with a warbird. (if you have a way more powerful aircraft, you could try to outclimb the enemy but that makes you easy to shoot at……so)

The Strategy for winning is, see them first, be higher and faster. Have the moment of surprise on your sight. 

oh i have been patient. I have tried pulling on the turn, i have tried letting the plane turn on its own, but they just seem to always zip past. While constantly turning to get round to them, they end up in front of me for a few seconds and they are already facing me and zip right back behind me again, by this time im already starting to stall on the turn and while im spinning around in literal circles to get this one plane, another one has already made it behind me and is taking pot shots while my flight is just flying around doing aerobatics like its an airshow 

Edited April 20 by Alphagamer1981

[Hiob]

2 minutes ago, Alphagamer1981 said:

oh i have been patient. I have tried pulling on the turn, i have tried letting the plane turn on its own, but they just seem to always zip past. While constantly turning to get round to them, they end up in front of me for a few seconds and they are already facing me and zip right back behind me again, by this time im already starting to stall on the turn and while im spinning around in literal circles to get this one plane, another one has already made it behind me and is taking pot shots while my flight is just flying around doing aerobatics like its an airshow 

Hm, as I said, hard to tell without witnessing it. Seem to me that you struggle a bit with the geometry of the fight (or the feel for it). Can’t really tell how to improve that except practice and watch videos (e.g. from Growling Sidewinder)……

Maybe for practice, try to find the maximum sustained turn rate (meaning pulling as hard as possible without loosing (much) speed. Just on your own, without an adversary.

[Alphagamer1981]

i swear this game is actually trolling me now. After venting and getting all that off my chest, I just tried one of the missions i always get shot down on, and wouldnt you know, i took down 2 ju-88's and one of the 2 109s and made it back to base as if everything i was struggling with before somehow wasn't an issue anymore

[grafspee]

Dogfighting is not easy task, especially in spitfire  which can turn fast but is quite slow. Another thing about spitfire is that you can kill all your energy in one turn, spit is very sensitive in pitch and it is very easy to burn energy thought out abrupt maneuvers. So even if you know in theory how to do it you have to learn your stick hand neurosurgeon precision and gentleness.

[Doughguy]

If you fight AI you have to understang that they fly perfectly. the do not make human errors but others. they always fly the same pattern.

Also, from what i can read, you simply just burn your energy. If a spit so so slow, every other fight can indeed outturn it.
It appears, you have not understood nor internalized the concept of energy fighting.

I tackle that alot with the SR-F rookies.

Many spitfire pilots simply try to outcircle you, but if they simply follow you to get a lead, theyll fall into your trap.

Thus, often people simply rely on high bank flat horizontal turns. But that wastes alot of energy. You always need a altitude component to it.

With enough energy i waste spits easily in my d9 or anton.

However, if the spit pilot isnt overly aggressive, but starts to shadow me keeping his energy high, its gonna get really difficult.

It would be best if youd post a video or so of you fighting.

[Mr_sukebe]

One point I read recently is that the DCS warbird AI will happily use WEP (or the German equivalent) and has fewer restrictions than a DCS player.

The suggested workaround was to use Restrict Afterburner as a setting in the mission editor, which apparently prevents this.

[Alphagamer1981]

This is the thing I have only been able to practice against AI so I only know what I have experienced from them and I don't know what I don't know if that makes sense. Watching a video of someone doing it is helpful to a point but you don't see or get a feel of how they are handling their stick, and while they make it look easy, they maybe aren't explaining it well enough for it to be noted. This is why I was looking for other real players to take me under their wing for a short period so that I can be corrected when I'm doing something wrong instead of making the same mistakes over and over

[Doughguy]

Although i dont have the spit i can show you some stuff if you want to.

Sent you a DM.

 

Edited April 21 by Doughguy

[Rex]

On 4/20/2025 at 10:20 AM, Alphagamer1981 said:

So I have pretty much had to watch tutorials on how to do everything, and I have pretty much got everything nailed except the dogfighting part. 

I am a BF-109 DCS pilot, and I have some tips for the Spitfire that I guarantee will get more kills.  These are tips that very few people are aware of, and if you use them, everyone will think you are some kind of "super pilot".

1.  Cut the throttle while turning.  Most people enter turns way too fast, and they keep the throttle maxed while turning.  Wrong, Wong, wrong.  Power makes your turning circle wider, what you need to do is get right above stall speed, and then PULL HARD with the power at idle.   The lower you execute this maneuver the better.   The spit turns best at 50'-100' AGL.

2. Need to catch an enemy plane?  Full flaps!  I know it's sightly counter-intuitive but a Spitfire exhibits behavior called "flap draft".  You know how race cars go faster when they are directly behind another car?  Same concept.  The flaps form a pocket of air directly under the plane, which significantly reduces drag and helps get the plane moving.

3. Inverted Flight = Better Performance.  The Merlin engine is mounted upside-down in the fuselage due to space constraints.  Inverted flight allows you to get the most power from the engine.

4. Adjust sights.  There is a well known flaw in the Spitfire that causes the sites to be calibrated way too far in front of the target during deflection shots.  To compensate, what you need to do is sight just behind the plane when firing.  Missing will be a thing of the past.  This is especially true when targeting the BF-109.  For some reason, the Spitfire gunsight leads the BF-109 about twice as much another planes.  Rumors are that a German spy infiltrated the Supermarine plant and altered the blueprints.  Now that you, know, however, always aim behind the plane your trying to shoot.

5. Landing gear ... not just for landing!  Similar to flap draft, there is another phenomenon known as "gear effect".  Have you ever heard of "ground effect", where a plane experiences less drag near the ground (look it up!).  Well, Spitfire gear is mounted just aft of the circumferential point, which basically puts you in ground effect regardless of altitude.  When you need maximum performance, and you need it NOW, drop the landing gear, and hang on tight!  Have you ever ridden a slingshot projectile?  Well you have now!

Look, we've all been there. Dogfighting can be challenging, but with these tips, you'll be racking up kills in no time.  People will be saying "Hey, who is that?  Is that Alphagamer1981 or is that Eric Hartman.  

 

P.S. I know you're a Spit pilot, so sorry to use a German pilot in that last example.  I tried to think of an Allied pilot to use as an example, but while there are over 100 German pilots with 100 kills or more, the top Allied pilot only had 40 kills, and the third best was already in the 20s, so yeah, so when it comes to real aces, there is only one country to choose from.  It's not that the Allied pilots weren't as good ... they totally were ... they just took more vacations or something.  Honestly, I lost track of all the excuses, maybe the ground crew kept forgetting to put ammo in the planes, but they were totally every bit as good.  Now if you go by kill CLAIMS, whoo boy, the Allies literally shot down every man, woman, and child on the planet .. five times over.  Now that is a feat! 

Edited 10 hours ago by Rex

[DD_Fenrir]

3 hours ago, Rex said:

I am a BF-109 DCS pilot, and I have some tips for the Spitfire that I guarantee will get more kills.  These are tips that very few people are aware of, and if you use them, everyone will think you are some kind of "super pilot".

1.  Cut the throttle while turning.  Most people enter turns way too fast, and they keep the throttle maxed while turning.  Wrong, Wong, wrong.  Power makes your turning circle wider, what you need to do is get right above stall speed, and then PULL HARD with the power at idle.   The lower you execute this maneuver the better.   The spit turns best at 50'-100' AGL.

2. Need to catch an enemy plane?  Full flaps!  I know it's sightly counter-intuitive but a Spitfire exhibits behavior called "flap draft".  You know how race cars go faster when they are directly behind another car?  Same concept.  The flaps form a pocket of air directly under the plane, which significantly reduces drag and helps get the plane moving.

3. Inverted Flight = Better Performance.  The Merlin engine is mounted upside-down in the fuselage due to space constraints.  Inverted flight allows you to get the most power from the engine.

4. Adjust sights.  There is a well known flaw in the Spitfire that causes the sites to be calibrated way too far in front of the target during deflection shots.  To compensate, what you need to do is sight just behind the plane when firing.  Missing will be a thing of the past.  This is especially true when targeting the BF-109.  For some reason, the Spitfire gunsight leads the BF-109 about twice as much another planes.  Rumors are that a German spy infiltrated the Supermarine plant and altered the blueprints.  Now that you, know, however, always aim behind the plane your trying to shoot.

5. Landing gear ... not just for landing!  Similar to flap draft, there is another phenomenon known as "gear effect".  Have you ever heard of "ground effect", where a plane experiences less drag near the ground (look it up!).  Well, Spitfire gear is mounted just aft of the circumferential point, which basically puts you in ground effect regardless of altitude.  When you need maximum performance, and you need it NOW, drop the landing gear, and hang on tight!  Have you ever ridden a slingshot projectile?  Well you have now!

Look, we've all been there. Dogfighting can be challenging, but with these tips, you'll be racking up kills in no time.  People will be saying "Hey, who is that?  Is that Alphagamer1981 or is that Eric Hartman.  

 

P.S. I know you're a Spit pilot, so sorry to use a German pilot in that last example.  I tried to think of an Allied pilot to use as an example, but while there are over 100 German pilots with 100 kills or more, the top Allied pilot only had 40 kills, and the third best was already in the 20s, so yeah, so when it comes to real aces, there is only one country to choose from.  It's not that the Allied pilots weren't as good ... they totally were ... they just took more vacations or something.  Honestly, I lost track of all the excuses, maybe the ground crew kept forgetting to put ammo in the planes, but they were totally every bit as good.  Now if you go by kill CLAIMS, whoo boy, the Allies literally shot down every man, woman, and child on the planet .. five times over.  Now that is a feat! 

Wow. Gaslighting? That’s pretty <profanity>ty behaviour. But what more can we expect from angry man boy wehraboos?

[Art-J]

Not sure if gaslighting or rather "an attempt at humor, I suppose" (quoting memorable scene from "No Country for Old Men"). One way or another, I'd hazard a guess too many beverages on Friday night might have an impact on that lengthy post .

I sure hope, however, that none of novice players trying DCS warbirds for the 1st time take it too seriously.

Edited 6 hours ago by Art-J

[Cab]

9 hours ago, Rex said:

It's not that the Allied pilots weren't as good ... they totally were ... they just took more vacations or something.  Honestly, I lost track of all the excuses, maybe the ground crew kept forgetting to put ammo in the planes, but they were totally every bit as good.  

This is exactly right. When it came to developing combat skills, the German military was well known for its work ethic and perseverance. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Belgium, Netherland, Luxembourg, and Greece. Not to mention short trips to England.

Yeah, compared to Germany, the U.S. military, and fighter pilots especially, were just a bunch of couch potatoes.