In real life how do Apache pilots roll or Immelman the helicopter

[DmitriKozlowsky]

In real life how do Apache pilots roll or Immelman the helicopter?

I am unable to do it in sim without catastrophic results. My helo is empty with 20% fuel.

I see Red Bull BO 105 do it. However it has special rigid rotor hub.

I see RAF Lynx do it.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

You'd better wait until we have the final flight model (rotor model) before attempting such shenanigans.

[LorenLuke]

[bradmick]

We don’t.

[HPLsCat]

The DCS Apache can do it if you control the rotor droop, but it's not exactly representative of real life.

[jaylw314]

Literally unplayable /s

[DmitriKozlowsky]

2 hours ago, HPLsCat said:

The DCS Apache can do it if you control the rotor droop, but it's not exactly representative of real life.

How is this done again?

[NeedzWD40]

Ignoring the obvious "ok but y tho," you can do loops and rolls with the 64 in the game, you just need careful manipulation of the controls. It's also advisable to kill the SAS while doing it as well.

An immelmann turn is hard for me to pull off without dumping all my speed and it seems rather silly to do so when more than enough authority exists for a bog standard climbing turns with a bit of bank and yaw.

[HPLsCat]

9 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

How is this done again?

Practice.

You should have a lot of speed and altitude when working it, so even if you stall the generators, you can probably autorotate to restart them.

[ricktoberfest]

the biggest thing i found with maneuvers like this is to avoid lots of collective.  You only want enough to keep it controllable or it will work against you and slow you down instead of allowing you to climb like that.  In the Ka-50 if you have too much collective then the rotors hit.  The Apache doesn't have that problem but it still needs very low collective when able.  Its all about using your momentum and timing.

[Apache 64]

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 9/25/2025 at 10:35 AM, Apache 64 said:

 

This guy's Apache had LMFD color ADI. Which we do not.

[NeedzWD40]

48 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

This guy's Apache had LMFD color ADI. Which we do not.

While I suspect that the E model's blades might give a bit of help (among some of the other differences), a presence of a full color ADI doesn't exactly make a lot of difference in the ability (or inability) to perform acrobatic maneuvers in a helicopter.

It's probably the skateboard he tucked behind the seat. Makes all the difference in the world.

Edited November 8 by NeedzWD40

[shagrat]

I am aware it's a demo display at an airshow, but let's assume someone wants to fly such a display at a virtual airshow, it's definitely something the AH-64D can do IRL and did regularly.

As usual for these kind of displays, there's no weapons attached, likely the minimum amount of fuel necessary for the display plus safety margin and they sure had a lot of training, flying this display by the numbers.

There are other videos around, but I find this one interesting, as it should be the same timeframe of "our" DCS AH-64D model.

 

There's a maneuverability demo with an 'A'-model, as well. This one has even some loadout.

 

But(!) I am pretty sure these are not necessarily maneuvers for a typical combat mission. Last ditch, desperate evasion, but only if something went very wrong.

The only thing I personally ever used in DCS as an armchair pilot, was a deliberate split-S from altitude to get away from a AAA dead ahead. Luckily I had enough altitude, what might have not been the best tactical approach in the first place.

For DCS I think ricktoberfest's advice is good. Use speed / momentum with cyclic and resist pulling the collective before the rotordisk is mostly pointing downwards. If you roll do it smooth and keep the rotordisk loaded.

And if you have 16 Hellfire, full gun ammo and a full fuel tank, aerobatics is not a good idea...

[deloy]

I have practiced and done all these maneuvers in DCS, be careful with torque application , use light load. Need lateral cyclic  to counter roll while pushing nose down other wise it’s fine and doable . 
 

Cheers , 

[FireHazard]

I'm very much  a novice 64 flyer and can roll and loop the machine without issue, 

You need to have 'force release' pressed during these acrobatics to have SCAS or you feel SCAS fighting.

Can it be done, easily it seems, is it realistic or within parameters of the real machine? Who knows

 

[dahui]

9 hours ago, FireHazard said:

I'm very much  a novice 64 flyer and can roll and loop the machine without issue, 

You need to have 'force release' pressed during these acrobatics to have SCAS or you feel SCAS fighting.

Can it be done, easily it seems, is it realistic or within parameters of the real machine? Who knows

 

Every Helicopter, regardless of its Rotorsystem, could do a loop. The Main Problem is the velocity to keep you in a Positive G State. 

The "Pitch Bank Turn" on the other hand is no Problem for any Helo

[Hiob]

42 minutes ago, dahui said:

Every Helicopter, regardless of its Rotorsystem, could do a loop. The Main Problem is the velocity to keep you in a Positive G State. 

Very theoretically, yes.

In practice - no. There is a reason that a Bo-105 is used by Red Bull for stunt flying. It is light and sufficiently fast and powerful. But most importantly it has a rigid rotor head. And despite that, it still burns through spare parts at an alarming rate.

A Robinson e.g. will never reach sufficient speed, nor has it enough power to ever do a successful looping. Others may get there once, but will be a case for heavy maintenance afterwards.

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, dahui said:

Every Helicopter, regardless of its Rotorsystem, could do a loop. The Main Problem is the velocity to keep you in a Positive G State. 

Not true, a coaxial rotor like on a Ka-50 severely restricts you from certain maneuvers due to possibility of rotors crashing into each other. In practice, doing stunt flying in it is asking for trouble.

[dahui]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Not true, a coaxial rotor like on a Ka-50 severely restricts you from certain maneuvers due to possibility of rotors crashing into each other. In practice, doing stunt flying in it is asking for trouble.

Tell me the difference between a 90° Bank Turn an a Loop from the Velocity point of view. If you would have enough speed and the loop diameter would be gibt enough, it would be no problem.

 

6 hours ago, Hiob said:

Very theoretically, yes.

In practice - no. There is a reason that a Bo-105 is used by Red Bull for stunt flying. It is light and sufficiently fast and powerful. But most importantly it has a rigid rotor head. And despite that, it still burns through spare parts at an alarming rate.

A Robinson e.g. will never reach sufficient speed, nor has it enough power to ever do a successful looping. Others may get there once, but will be a case for heavy maintenance afterwards.

Of course its from a theoretical standpoint. Thats why i said "if enough velocity"

 

 

I dont want to start a debate about what is possible and works and what not. i just wanted to clarify something which a lot of people mix up

 

 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, dahui said:

 

Of course its from a theoretical standpoint. Thats why i said "if enough velocity"

I know. But taking apart theories can also be interesting. I’d argue that for most helicopter it is impossible even theoretically.

Other than fixed wing aircraft, helicopter are very limited in regards to speed (and I don’t mean by power or by run up, but by the blades going super sonic) and g-forces. To successfully do a loop you will probably run of one or the other or both.