Grimes Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Contrary to what many studios do to show off game engines, there is more to it than being able to render an old guys face at super high detail in real time. :) The right man in the wrong place makes all the difference in the world. Current Projects: Grayflag Server, Scripting Wiki Useful Links: Mission Scripting Tools MIST-(GitHub) MIST-(Thread) SLMOD, Wiki wishlist, Mission Editing Wiki!, Mission Building Forum
3instein Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 @Demongornot, I agree on quite a lot on what you have to say regarding the DCS engine,but until we see Outerra perform with the same amount of objects,discussing how it would perform is a moot point IMHO. Outerra is obviously a beautiful game engine that shows promise, but it has been available for quite some time now and if as good as what it claims I'm sure someone would have picked it up by now. I know we seem to be waiting on EDGE forever but all we really can do is wait to see how it performs before commenting on it. I really hope it's all it is cracked up to be,as a lot of people will be sorely disappointed if it isn't. Mick. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]Keep the faith AMD PHENOM II X 4 955be @3.2 GHZ | ASUS M4A88TD-V EVO mb | Corsair XMS3-8GB Dual Channel DDR3 Memory | Nvidea GTX 580 GDDR5 GPU | CNPS9900 NT cooler | Corsair HX850W psu | Seagate Barracuda 500GB HD 300 MBps - 7200 rpm | WIN 7 64bit | 32" HD LCD TV | 5.1 surround sound | wireless keyboard and mouse | Saitek x45 hotas.
Scoggs Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 @Demongornot, I agree on quite a lot on what you have to say regarding the DCS engine,but until we see Outerra perform with the same amount of objects,discussing how it would perform is a moot point IMHO. Outerra is obviously a beautiful game engine that shows promise, but it has been available for quite some time now and if as good as what it claims I'm sure someone would have picked it up by now. I know we seem to be waiting on EDGE forever but all we really can do is wait to see how it performs before commenting on it. I really hope it's all it is cracked up to be,as a lot of people will be sorely disappointed if it isn't. Mick. :) In an earlier post I made, there is a link to try it yourself. also... http://www.tucsonembedded.com/Home/tabid/41/ctl/Detail/mid/432/xmid/175/xmfid/1/Default.aspx 1 My SpecsAsus Maximus Hero IX Z270 i7 7700k @ 4.7GHz 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ 3700MHz DDR4 EVGA RTX 2080Ti Samsung 960 Evo 1TB M.2 NVME SSD EVGA SuperNOVA 1200 P2 Acer XB270HU 144Hz @ 1440p (IPS) Valve Index OOOOhhh, I wish I had the Alpha of a Hornet!
Hawk_5 Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I don't what the engine is or how good, there is only so much you can do with a home PC system, even a current gen good one. The more you populate the environment with dynamic battlefield objects and multiple human participants in aircraft, tanks etc. over uncertain net speed connections there will be a point at which no matter how good it looks the sim environment will hit the proverbial brick wall. No engine can avoid that. Maybe when we all have optic fibre to the door and the server can run and track thousands of events per second in real time will we get that ultimate sim environment ie. a realtime online battlefield with realistic physics from the comfort of our homes. One day... For now, I look forward to seeing what EDGE can do and how it will handle a big battlefield. Hawk_5 Modules: A10C, BS2, FC3, P51, CA, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2 System: Gigabyte GA-X79UP4 MB, intel 3930k, Coolermaster Siedon 120M liquid cooled, Corsair Vengence Red 16GB 2133Mhz, Gigabyte Geforce GTX680 2GB Super o'clk, intel 520 SSD 240GB, Seagate Barracuda 2TB HD, Coolermaster Silent Pro 800W PS, Coolermaster CM690 II Case
Erforce Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I didn't said that a GE should make all other calculations but rendering. In current state of DCS (all high, no exception) i can navigate with 3 digits FPS. As soon as i put some nasty scripts and place myself in a KA cockpit, i drop under VSync on a 4Ghz+ hardware. ED said first iteration of EDGE was 2 even 1 digit FPS. unacceptable. that's why they rewrote it from start. So yes, Outerra looks great with the lack of complex scenes (the city i saw was nice, but it was alongside a road, without hi-rez texture.) If you looks for nice GE, there are CryEngine, UnrealE 3, Trinity/Carbon, etc... Now let's put them in the "real world" X³, X rebirth : mixed, i don't really like the GE actually. and it kills our systems in large battles. CryEngine : Well, crysis has 3 marines, 1 rocket, and 3 aliens. it runs smooth. Unreal 3 : Tera Online use it. It's pretty with 1-3 people and drop to 5-7 FPS in 120 ppl Nexuses. Trinity : Eve Online, come on, Carbon framwork is mindblowing (walk in station). Ships and textures are beautiful. Everything over 3 digits FPS. And then come heavy battles, thousands of missiles, drones, lazers, electronic warfare. Even servers has to "Dilate time (1/10th realtime)" to aknowledge every commands. And look at clients experience, 4FPS, 10FPS, 20FPS for the lucky ones (of course, they zoomed out, seing dots.) So, again, Outerra is nice. but has no real application right now. It CAN do this, it CAN do that separately. But i'll wait until i see something usable. TASK / ROLES acronyms guide Black Shark A.I. datalink guide illustrated (v1.2.4 Available on Wiki) DCS World Codex 1.1 : full units list (Speed/Weapons/Armor thickness/Threat zone/Weapon damage...) (Oct 2013) BlackShark 2 1.2.x Bug and glitches thread (v1.2.7)
Demongornot Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 The view distance excuse in flight sims always make me laugh. First, who really need it ? it mean its not vital, when you dogfight you only look enemy plane and sometime your hud for speed and altitude and certainly not mountain, in BVR same, you don't have the time, you look hud, radar and RWR and in both situation, look something else can be disastrous or mortal, navigation is done with instruments and no civil aircraft are yet in DCS (and that mean no VFR flight) and even in the P51D we use navigation system, and you only look far away distance for enjoy it, and to be honest their is almost nothing to enjoy visually in DCS. But the excuse also make me laugh when we have several game who handle BIG rendering distance and big company who do tweak for long distance view, like dynamic background (and i said dynamic, who change depending of our altitude and our position) or some other tweak who can permit to having really huge draw distance without any problems. Look at this video : focus on the begin and think about the fact that it was not optimized for long distance (but he still be able to show it without problems) think about the fact that it was real time with a standard computer and also think about the fact that it have maybe 100 time more polygons than the whole DCS game with every units and it have better performance for way better rendering... Look at this and look at the mountain/ground complexity, a single and simple (but a big one) mountain of Outerra have i'm sure more polygon than the whole DCS terrain. DCS have trouble for rendering a whole country with correct performance, Outerra rendering the whole earth and over this autogenerate the scenery in real time. DCS are not able to do this : https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ujpH0cGPqb0/UV8vI7Z4zII/AAAAAAAAAc8/A9ssVOFnvJg/w1253-h705/screen_1365192342.jpg CPU : I7 6700k, MB : MSI Z170A GAMING M3, GC : EVGA GTX 1080ti SC2 GAMING iCX, RAM : DDR4 HyperX Fury 4 x 8 Go 2666 MHz CAS 15, STORAGE : Windows 10 on SSD, games on HDDs. Hardware used for DCS : Pro, Saitek pro flight rudder, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, Oculus Rift. Own : A-10C, Black Shark (BS1 to BS2), P-51D, FC3, UH-1H, Combined Arms, Mi-8MTV2, AV-8B, M-2000C, F/A-18C, Hawk T.1A Want : F-14 Tomcat, Yak-52, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, F-5E, MiG-21Bis, F-86F, MAC, F-16C, F-15E.
Madone Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) Are you supposing that ED should use on of your engine above? If ED works on its own engine, there's a reason. But the excuse also make me laugh when we have several game who handle BIG rendering distance and big company who do tweak for long distance view, like dynamic background (and i said dynamic, who change depending of our altitude and our position) or some other tweak who can permit to having really huge draw distance without any problems. Ok go ahead! Tell us names and share your incredible rendering technics. But maybe you know objects are already rendered progressively? Eagle Dynamics isn't a big company in the game industry and I don't think they intend to tease the big ones (big ones that mostly create arcade things) but if you have some funds to give away, do not hesitate! Btw Outerra is far from being a reference, it's neither a revolution nor bad. Edited May 1, 2013 by Madone Strike Posture Set CAS Center of Excellence Intel Core i5 4690k @4,6Ghz, Gigabyte GTX 970 OC, Gigabyte Z97-X, 16GB G Skill Sniper @2400, Samsung 860/850 EVO , Win 10 64 bits, Dual monitors 27"@144"Opentrack + TM Warthog + Saitek pro flight combat
sereupin Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 it is unbelievable here to read so many people complaining and defending so strong who said only something true. That the quality of GRAPHIC and AUDIO is simply very very very poor and old is a FACT, not an opinion. We can find many many examples of wonderful graphic engines: infinity, outerra just 2 example.. but we can find great graphic in arma3 also.. Another example? Dedicated to who continue to repeat the ridicolous argumentation that "on simulators you can't have it.." : FSX is THE example of what could be if they would like it. FSX with REX, for example.. or ORBIX.. the environment, the audio, the extreme quality of details and the feeling of immersion is unbelievable. I love ED and his products since i bought lock on 1.. BUT, we can't be so blind to dont consider that NOW, at 2013, this graphic and this audio quality is simply embarassing for a modern product. I like the DCS products, i repeat, but I will not continue to buy in a future a product with so poor quality concerning graphic and audio as well. I don't say this for to be a child that needs to complain, i say that because I wish a great product, especially because what I wish is totally possible to realize if they want it. FSX is totally old comparing to DCS world.. but the graphic is thousands of time better... make it much more better please, this is my wish. thanks. 1
Silver_Dragon Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 The problem of the whole discussion is ignorance about the real capabilities of DCS: W and its future projection. Many You allege that ED should throw away their graphics engine because there is something much better. Instead, EDGE actual limits are not known, only for some video and several images, until it does not, we can not compare on the table that capabilities are better and worse, still, capabilities currently not available in current engines, including the "famous" FPS engines or Outterra or others. ED is very clear, better to have a separate motor that can change at will that depend on third parties that may affect the quality of their products and possibly the final price (license fees) For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
Madone Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 ^^^ this Indeed ED is already working on a better engine and people are still complaining about the old engine as if nothing was going to change, sorry but I think ED know what are the weaknesses of the old one and guess why? Because they made it! About the audio, I barely agree with you sereupin, it's far from being "poor", it needs tweaking, that's all and it's fairly achievable by the community but the amount of updates make it difficult (same from graphic tweaking). Strike Posture Set CAS Center of Excellence Intel Core i5 4690k @4,6Ghz, Gigabyte GTX 970 OC, Gigabyte Z97-X, 16GB G Skill Sniper @2400, Samsung 860/850 EVO , Win 10 64 bits, Dual monitors 27"@144"Opentrack + TM Warthog + Saitek pro flight combat
Erforce Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Well, when i start my Shark, i usually go nuts with the sound. my walls are shaking. I love it. neither more, nor less. Yes, DCS GE is pretty old. One thing i don't want, ED == microprose. Actually they're doing little steps, but they're advancing. You can fly Falcon 4, AF then BMS. Same Engine for 15years. It not really pretty, but... you don't play it for nostalgia. CoD MW is played for nostalgia, especially Cherno part, and that is ugly. Let ED move at their speed if they can survive it. I'm one of the first to criticize this GE, but i like those little additions over time (for the GUI, scripts etc..) and i'm one of the first who will buy in the minute they release a beta(of EDGE). So, yeah, i don't think ED will equal modern GE. But i also don't think Ubisoft (please no), EA or any DirectX/Cider master house will make a true sim too. Atari dropped Falcon. there's probably a reason. WorldOfTanks is a LOL game Wargame EE / ALB is a RTS game with a nice useless GE (do you really zoom this close to an ifv?) You don't love a game for its graphics. It's a bonus. (hello WoW players) Why we're discussing about this? The last available EDGE picts are 1y+ TASK / ROLES acronyms guide Black Shark A.I. datalink guide illustrated (v1.2.4 Available on Wiki) DCS World Codex 1.1 : full units list (Speed/Weapons/Armor thickness/Threat zone/Weapon damage...) (Oct 2013) BlackShark 2 1.2.x Bug and glitches thread (v1.2.7)
SkateZilla Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) I dont think those pics are "edge", they are Nevada, EDGE (The Rendering Engine) was still in the works IIRC. if anything it's a very early version of the image renderer with most of the shaders and stuff still turned off. as ED has said that they cannot show new images of the Nevada terrain because the Image Renderer was still not done, and without it.. you cant do anything (except maybe show us 3ds Max Renders!), the old images of Nevada are prolly from TFCSE 1.2.x.xxxx before the actual Nevada Terrain detail got to the point where the current Image Renderer could no longer render it at a playable level. Edited May 1, 2013 by SkateZilla Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
Madone Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 "So, yeah, i don't think ED will equal modern GE." Well that's kinda pessimistic. "But i also don't think Ubisoft (please no), EA or any DirectX/Cider master house will make a true sim too." lol those companies have employees that are managed to do what the directors want them to do. They could make a sim, that's just not their market. Strike Posture Set CAS Center of Excellence Intel Core i5 4690k @4,6Ghz, Gigabyte GTX 970 OC, Gigabyte Z97-X, 16GB G Skill Sniper @2400, Samsung 860/850 EVO , Win 10 64 bits, Dual monitors 27"@144"Opentrack + TM Warthog + Saitek pro flight combat
bigian Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 Ok my opinion on this and it's not from a computer whiz. I'm 13 hours into my private pilot's license, I fly a Cessna 172 in FSX with VFR scenery of Scotland as it lets me practice my real world flying. I fly the A10 in ED because it is soooooooo much more realistic, when you fly circuits at least it all looks so much more realistic (I wish of course I was training in an a10 rather than a Cessna!). I'm fed up with flying circuits in Bantumi but it is soooooo better than flying FSX. I'm desperate to fly around Nevada. I've bought thrustmaster's warthog HOTAS and Saitek combat rudder pedals and tracker 5 and they all make this study sim so much better and suck me in until I'm flying the jet for real - to my wife's horror! I would love to fly a fast jet sometime soon, but frequently augering in the A10 I know I'll never be a fast jet whiz - leave that for the young uns as I'm a grand old 51 year old. I love the huey for it's iconic status but want to focus on fixed wing for my real world pilot work, I'll not buy it as I did the P51 (never flown). I just wish they would focus on releasing EDGE and Nevada - they would make an old man sooooo happy. This product is the best, no one can argue otherwise; I was an enormous fan of falcon 3 and 4 but this is a different world again and is as close as I will ever be to appreciating what the UK and America's brave men endure for our countries so well done ED, thanks and Pleeeeeeeaaaaase release Nevada soon and forget about the other jet modules for a wee bit longer.
shagrat Posted May 20, 2013 Posted May 20, 2013 The view distance excuse in flight sims always make me laugh. First, who really need it ? it mean its not vital, when you dogfight you only look enemy plane and sometime your hud for speed and altitude and certainly not mountain, in BVR same, you don't have the time, you look hud, radar and RWR and in both situation, look something else can be disastrous or mortal, navigation is done with instruments and no civil aircraft are yet in DCS (and that mean no VFR flight) and even in the P51D we use navigation system, and you only look far away distance for enjoy it, and to be honest their is almost nothing to enjoy visually iuse also make me laugh when we have several game who handle BIG rendering distance and big company who do tweak for long distance view... Your ignorant posts always have me do a face palm. :doh: With the view distance it is up to what you fly mission wise. If you never really tried to fly an A-10C mission with the TGP trying to acquire a SAM installation at 65 nm out, you can't understand. Spotting smoke columns is the same. VFR finding the ominous road crossing etc. You really need to differentiate between games aka "boom-bang-whoosh" and simulation. I had a multiplayer session with a buddy. We both are ex military and when we circled at 12,000 ft he talked me onto a tank hidden in a small village, cause he was Winchester. He did this with visual cues, only. It works like this: "See a river fork forming a V south? From the river about 3 klicks NE, you see three small villages. The most western has a bridge crossing the river. From that bridge east is a roadcrossing, from there north of the road you see an L-shaped building. behind the building are some trees, there he hides!!!" Without a GE that renders accurate long distance with good details and recognisable landscape and habitation features, like roads, rivers, lakes, villages, towns, Forrest's etc. we will be back to the discussion of HAWX or Battlefield vs. a combat flight sim. Just because you can't use terrain features or long distance view in your style of gameplay does not necessarily mean it's useless... by the way, when is your new Add-on Mod ready for us to try? You wanted to show us what is possible with a little C-programming, right? http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1730615&postcount=58 I guess you will realize soon enough, that it is easy to criticize, but a lot harder to contribute... if it was so easy to simply make a new engine, a new map, a new sim environment etc. studios would push out new sophisticated hardcore flightsims by the dozens, don't you think? Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)
Lucas_From_Hell Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I am frankly unimpressed with Outerra. It reminds me of Il-2's Slovakia map, only with nicer trees and smoother mountains. Nevada's looking pretty good y'know?
zaelu Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Nevada Who? :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I5 4670k, 32GB, GTX 1070, Thrustmaster TFRP, G940 Throttle extremely modded with Bodnar 0836X and Bu0836A, Warthog Joystick with F-18 grip, Oculus Rift S - Almost all is made from gifts from friends, the most expensive parts at least
Rincevent Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I am frankly unimpressed with Outerra. It reminds me of Il-2's Slovakia map, only with nicer trees and smoother mountains Exactly. I don't know what people find so cool about this "engine". Can't even call it an engine as it's only a shiny tech demo and still has to prove it can be used in an actual game. I'd rather have AFM + 6-DOF cockpits on all of my FC3 aircrafts with Lock-On graphics than Outerra-Style graphics and mediocre gameplay features because the engine can only provide eye-candy. How can you govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese? Charles De Gaulle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
cichlidfan Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Nevada's looking pretty good y'know? Not bad at all. :thumbup: Somewhere among all the screenies, I have some nice shots of the P-51 over the beta terrain. I should dig them up. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:
zaelu Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I don't think there's a need for bashing Outerra here. It looks like nothing now due to the fact is a very Alpha stage yet. But it's coming along quite nice. Like in ED, there is not huge team that works on it and I am sure the team is even way smaller than EDs one... Something around 2+ guys that probably are not living out of it so maybe they have a day job or something too. What they have achieved so far? I pretty believable looking terrain of the whole planet and an engine that renders it with lightning speed. Plus some quite funny Sandbox Tools that you can play with if you buy the alpha/support the team (15$). I can't say I play a lot of it right now but I appreciate what those guys did so far. You can build an airfield if you wish (which can have a runway that follows the terrain which is cool :) ) and fly off it with a few airplanes... Cesna172 is the one that flies best but Mig 29 is cool also... yeah has no radar etc but is nice to fly it. I tried the Apache and I found it to be quite difficult and does not feel "arcadish" at all... basically I can't fly it :D (Although with Ka50 I can fly decent enough to complete missions and I rarely die). You can build roads and drive around... you can build very different roads through mountains and forests etc and at the ground level is spectacular on some places. As examples... me and my friends like to play from Gudauta in DCS and I build a base right there in Outerra (btw... if you press g in Outerra you get a google GPS map and you know exactly where you are... I went to my grandparents village somewhere in nowhere Romania and I could recognize the terrain although the river was missing and the forest was miss represented a bit). And I flew from Gudauta fast build up base towards the mountains... man... DCS looks very nice in the dusk/dawn but with outerra terrrain... would rule. I also flew off the Grand Canyon... which for now has a lot of grass on it... what a fall... I flew with a jeep off a cliff :D . And I flew with Mig29 through it like in Independence Day movie... Is spectacular even with grass and some trees. So... bottom line is... don't throw rocks at somebody else work... Especially if they struggled a lot for something that looked closely is quite an achievement. If EDGE will come close to the terrain of Outerra but completed with water and forests etc... even if it will have smaller maps it will ROCK!! P.S. I forgot to tell you about Himalaya.... but... I talked too much anyway. :P 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I5 4670k, 32GB, GTX 1070, Thrustmaster TFRP, G940 Throttle extremely modded with Bodnar 0836X and Bu0836A, Warthog Joystick with F-18 grip, Oculus Rift S - Almost all is made from gifts from friends, the most expensive parts at least
Silver_Dragon Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 If EDGE will come close to the terrain of Outerra but completed with water and forests etc... even if it will have smaller maps it will ROCK!! Let's stop this battle once daily Outerra against EDGE / DCS: World at once?. Eagle Dynamics has his own plans, and Outerra not fit into their plans, for many hundreds of post to be put on the table or many post "discrediting" to EDGE / Nevada. That's the problem that you have, you do not know the real capabilities of EDGE, and so it is very easy to value judgments without reliable data. Only known ED, do not underestimate the work of others. For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
zaelu Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I'm sorry but I don't understand what are you saying... I think you misquoted me and you were trying to answer to somebody else. For me there is not battle, I was not discrediting anyone... I don't place judgments and have no problem with how ED is developing EDGE... besides the fact that is not ready yet but that is not a judgment, merely a simple personal observation... or a side note. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I5 4670k, 32GB, GTX 1070, Thrustmaster TFRP, G940 Throttle extremely modded with Bodnar 0836X and Bu0836A, Warthog Joystick with F-18 grip, Oculus Rift S - Almost all is made from gifts from friends, the most expensive parts at least
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