To Devs: Regarding trimmer

[Brainless]

This is from old BS 1.0.1., but I think it is still valid for BS2.

In addition to the original trimmer implementation, in which control input is disabled for 1 second to allow the player to quickly re-center his controls, a new method is included in version 1.0.1, using a different re-centering logic. In the new method, control input is disabled until the player returns the controls to their neutral position. This allows the player to re-center his controls smoothly, minimizing unwanted control input.

 

With both methods you need to center controls.

What you mean:

Again - you do not need to centre the controls.

 

And again:

I'm using second method for centering controls.

And when release and press trimmer again (without centering controls), I want sim to give me the control.

[XarBat]

Allowing a trimmer press to regain control of the chopper is a fantastic idea. Especially since in most real helicopters you would fly with all four autopilot channels enabled; and then hold both the trimmer button and the collective lever when you wanted to manually control the chopper. Another problem is the collective lever does not seem to disengage the altitude hold mode like it should.

[159th_Viper]

.......With both methods you need to center controls....

 

You do not seem to want to listen - that's fine by me. Best advice in the circumstances is to watch and analyse the track and re-read the entire thread again.

 

In conclusion - you do not need to centre the controls when CPTM is unticked.

 

OK - I'm done preaching :wallbash:

[Yurgon]

You do not seem to want to listen - that's fine by me. Best advice in the circumstances is to watch and analyse the track and re-read the entire thread again.

 

In conclusion - you do not need to centre the controls when CPTM is unticked.

 

OK - I'm done preaching :wallbash:

 

That's weird. That statement differs from all I know and have ever known about flying Black Shark. Brainless already quoted the release notes for 1.0.1 that to my knowledge didn't change with 1.0.2 and BS2 concerning central position trimmer mode. In the BS2 manual there's also a part about Hover check that clearly states:

 

Trim the helicopter by pressing the trim button. If you don't have a Force Feedback joystick, after pressing the trim button you must move the stick to the neutral position.

 

It appears clear that the OP doesn't have a force feedback stick, so independent of the CPTM setting, joystick and rudder must be reset to their neutral position after trimming.

 

To my knowledge, the difference between CPTM on/off is:

• With CPTM on, the sim won't grant any control authority unless joystick and rudder have been returned to their neutral position.
  
• with CPTM off, the sim will ignore all joystick and rudder inputs for a certain amount of time (as quoted above, 1 second by default). After that time has elapsed, all control input (still) present will be applied.
  

 

Especially the second part is what causes the "bump": if the controls are not centered after one second, the current control input will be added to the freshly trimmed input, resulting in double the input of what was intended. For all I know, this behavior is the reason that CPTM was introduced in the first place.

 

In conclusion, the OP is right in that there is a difference between CPTM on or off, he is right in that without FFB joysticks the controls must be centered after trimming and he is free to choose between CPTM on or off. Personally, I've never used CPTM, but according to the OPs description, it would seem to make sense to add the suggested feature (I somehow doubt that ED is going to do so in the near future, though).

 

159th_Viper, unless I am terribly wrong, your statement is simply wrong for non FFB-users. I suppose the bump-effect will be much less noticeable with small and repeated trims, but that doesn't mean that the PC-controls don't need to be centered after trimming. Repeated bold letter preaching is not going to make your point any more valid.

[159th_Viper]

159th_Viper, unless I am terribly wrong, your statement is simply wrong for non FFB-users. I suppose the bump-effect will be much less noticeable with small and repeated trims, but that doesn't mean that the PC-controls don't need to be centered after trimming. Repeated bold letter preaching is not going to make your point any more valid.

 

:wallbash:

 

Analyse the track I posted in post #32. Flown with non-FFB Cougar UberIINxt and CH Pedals.

[Brainless]

You do not seem to want to listen - that's fine by me. Best advice in the circumstances is to watch and analyse the track and re-read the entire thread again.

 

In conclusion - you do not need to centre the controls when CPTM is unticked.

 

OK - I'm done preaching :wallbash:

 

I listen, but unfortunately you don't understand me. I want CPTM to be CHECKED.

I FLY WITH THIS MODE, AND I PREFER THIS MODE.

I only want one small addition:

If I release trimmer button (accidently), and press and hold it again, to continue with trimming (to be able to control the helicopter), without need to return controls to their neutral position.

 

From Black Shark 2 GUI manual:

 

Central Position Trimmer Mode. When selected, enables the alternate method of trim system implementation for non-force-feedback joystick devices.Using this mode, the player's control input is unrecognized after the trimmer button is pressed-released, until the controls are returned to a neutral position.This prevents the player from having to quickly return the controls to neutral after pressing-releasing the trimmer button, as is necessary using the default trimmer implementation.

 

If this simple thing is implemented, this paragraph will sound like this:

 

Central Position Trimmer Mode. When selected, enables the alternate method of trim system implementation for non-force-feedback joystick devices.Using this mode, the player's control input is unrecognized after the trimmer button is pressed-released, until the controls are returned to a neutral position or trimmer button is pressed again.This prevents the player from having to quickly return the controls to neutral after pressing-releasing the trimmer button, as is necessary using the default trimmer implementation.

[kylania]

What you want and what is possible are two different things. You need to either readjust how you fly or readjust what you want.

[PeterP]

Hi Brainless -

 

I understand what you want.

But did you read my post #14 ?

 

Viper is right.

 

 

 

I also understand what you want to achieve , but:

 

To get it working and combine both methods - it would really need some heavy scripting and a unknown factor will still be there because the machine can't read your mind when each of both methods is needed ....

So you would need a fourth command to tell it the computer (the three command that are used now : press/hold/release) .

 

This would make it even more complicated that you have it right now.

 

So please try the trimming without central positioning - and give yourself time to get used to it.

 

Edit:

If this is no option for you - considdre to get a FFB joystick like the MS-FFB2 or Logitech G940 - even if you have read of problems with the G940 - Trim works better with the Logitech than with any other non-FFB stick.

 

 

how should this supposed to work ? - how is the simulator knowing that you accidental released the button?

 

The only possible solution would be to set a timer that execute the release after -lets say - 0.5sec if you don't push it again in this time-frame.

 

This will be possible to do with autohotkey - but you will lose a lot of precision - 0.5 sec can be a very great timespan when you flying low.

Edited November 29, 2011 by PeterP

[159th_Falcon]

:wallbash:

 

Analyse the track I posted in post #32. Flown with non-FFB Cougar UberIINxt and CH Pedals.

 

Viper, time to hop over to the 159th forums and grab yourself a YPV, you are clearly in dire need of one.

 

 

 

 

Barrel, that is.

 

~S~

[Brainless]

Hi Brainless -

 

I understand what you want.

But did you read my post #14 ?

 

 

how should this supposed to work ? - how is the simulator knowing that you accidental released the button?

 

The only possible solution would be to set a timer that execute the release after -lets say - 0.5sec if you don't push it again in this time-frame.

 

This will be possible to do with autohotkey - but you will lose a lot of precision - 0.5 sec can be a very great timespan when you flying low.

 

Yes I read your post.

Timer is not good idea.

Simulator doesn't need to know if I accidental released the trimmer button or released it normally. It must react as supposed to do. With only one exception:

If I press trimmer again, before returning controls to their neutral position,

Simulator must assume that I already returned controls to their neutral position, and pressed trimmer again. Also simulator must assume position of the real controls in the moment of pressing the trimmer as last trimmed position of the simulated controls.

 

I don't know how clear is this. May be I must try to describe algorithm in pseudo programming language.

[Irregular programming]

I agree with you Brainless, your way of handling the trimmer would be superior to what we have now. I don't know what's so complicated about it.

[Bucic]

Analyse the track I posted in post #32. Flown with non-FFB Cougar UberIINxt and CH Pedals.

TBH I as well think there's some misunderstanding, Viper. As Yurgon recapped it in post #54 in both trimming methods available one needs to re-center his non-FFB controls. If not re-centered:

* CPTM on - game will not grant you any control until you do re-center (at least very near the center)

* CPTM off - game will wait X seconds, and then will add the current player joystick position to the position of in-game trimmed controls

 

Normally I would be like "WTF are you all re-discovering in this sorry thread" but your posts, Viper, got me, well, meybe not confused but certainly in need for setting things straight. As for the tracks - I don't have BS installed right now. I'd appreciate if you could point me to a video. You could always refer to my video here

but then it covers the 'bump issue' which, supposedly, only I/few suffer from.
Edited November 29, 2011 by Bucic

[cichlidfan]

* CPTM on - game will not grant you any control until you do re-center (at least very near the center)

* CPTM off - game will wait X seconds, and then will add the current player joystick position to the position of in-game trimmed controls

 

 

Now, that agrees with the way I had understood this somewhat convoluted paragraph.

 

Central Position Trimmer Mode. When selected, enables the alternate method of trim system implementation for non-force-feedback joystick devices.Using this mode, the player's control input is unrecognized after the trimmer button is pressed-released, until the controls are returned to a neutral position.This prevents the player from having to quickly return the controls to neutral after pressing-releasing the trimmer button, as is necessary using the default trimmer implementation.

 

I believe that the word in red is critical to reading, or understanding, this correctly.

Edited November 29, 2011 by cichlidfan

[159th_Viper]

TBH I as well think there's some misunderstanding, Viper

 

Misunderstanding as a result of selective perception.......Yeah - quite likely.

 

 

in both trimming methods available one needs to re-center his non-FFB controls....

 

Again - no. In one method you definitely do need to, lest you get 'locked out' so to speak. In the other, whilst it is advisable, depending on your flight parameters, to do so, there is no need to.

 

I'll repeat:

 

Never once did I say that you do not: I said that you do not need to. Dependant on my flight parameters, more often than not when I am engaged in unorthodox manoeuvring it is imperative for the said manoeuvring that the controls are not recentred. In any event, be that as it may, that's how I do things and have to date experienced no trim-related issues whatsoever and manage to get the bird from point A to point B with a certain amount of, well, let's just say, my particular brand of finesse.

 

As regards to the OP and the dilemma he suffers, ie 'locked controls', the solution is simple as stated previously.

[Bucic]

...

Please let me know when/if there's a vid depicting a maneuver with the CPTM off and controls not re-centered is available. I'm curious.

 

Also as a comment on your word selection. The way I see it you could as well say that someone doesn't need to descend vertically at a rate lower than 6 m/s ;) With a different approach - if you say 'there is no need to' while some other part of the official text uses a 'is necessary' expression it would perhaps be better to stay with the one version and maybe revise the discrepancy among the testers, on the back stage :) Especially that there's still a physically impossible player proposed trimmer implementation to discuss :D

Edited November 29, 2011 by Bucic

[wess24m]

Sry if this has been addressed, but I don't maneuver then trim, I've found that way to just cause a mess of everything. I normally hold the trimmer maneuver then release, has been working 100% perfect for me. the only other time i touch the stick without holding the trimmer is when i'm making small temporary adjustments.

 

*edit*

 

wow just read the thread...pretty simple really, this sim is for enjoyment so do what works best for you. Holding the trim and maneuvering (which is how I fly) might not be IRL correct but it I'm not fighting the AP and makes for smooth flights. No need to get worked up over a "enjoyment software" :)

Edited November 29, 2011 by wess24m
update

[spikenet]

yeah I agree, there is more then one way to "fly this bird" and I think the original request is valid. I for one would like to see a change like this

 

+1 ;)

[wess24m]

One thing I'd like to suggest is re-mapping the trim to a more "stable" button. I have the tm warthog and initially the trim was mapped to the pinky button and i was constantly losing the button press and/or hitting it twice when i'd grab the stick so i mapped it to the big "AP disconnect" slap switch at the base of the stick.

[kylania]

One thing I'd like to suggest is re-mapping the trim to a more "stable" button. I have the tm warthog and initially the trim was mapped to the pinky button and i was constantly losing the button press and/or hitting it twice when i'd grab the stick so i mapped it to the big "AP disconnect" slap switch at the base of the stick.

 

I mapped it all to the CMS button as that's where your thumb naturally sits. CMS forward to set trim. CMS right for toggle FD. CMS left for toggle ALT HOLD. CMS back for umm.. can't remember. Trim Release I think, but I never use it.

[Yurgon]

:wallbash:

 

Analyse the track I posted in post #32. Flown with non-FFB Cougar UberIINxt and CH Pedals.

 

I did (watch it, not analyse it). How is this going to help me understand your point, though? I don't see the position of your physical controls in the track.

 

Again - no. In one method you definitely do need to, lest you get 'locked out' so to speak. In the other, whilst it is advisable, depending on your flight parameters, to do so, there is no need to.

 

Oh. My. OH MY. Okay, I think I've got it now. Let me rephrase it in my own words and tell me if this is what you meant:

• CPTM on: it is mandatory to re-center joystick and rudder to regain any control on these at all.
  
• CPTM off: it is not mandatory (aka: "you don't need") to re-center joystick and rudder to regain any control on these at all.
  

 

Did I get that right? In that case, I'll recant my earlier statement that you were wrong, I'd just state that you selected a phrasing that could most easily be misunderstood.

 

In other words: with CPTM off and a non-FFB joystick, you don't need to recenter joystick and rudder after trimming. It's totally advisable, is factually advised by the manual, makes a lot of sense, helps people fly where they want to and how they want to do it, avoids bumping, but it's not needed in order to retain joystick and rudder control authority.

 

Is that what you were trying to convey? If so, your statement still doesn't help the OP, because he stated multiple times that he prefers CPTM, he'd just like its functionality to be adjusted.

 

I'd say the question is whether such an adjustment is really necessary or the OP can work around the problem like so:

• A) Not use CPTM
  
• B) Just live with the problem (that sometimes the depressed trimmer button will be accidentally released)
  

 

What really counts for options B is that the same problem could surface without CPTM; I think we all need to figure out how to fly the Shark, and this kind of learning includes not accidentally releasing the trim button. In other words @Brainless: Do you really think the software should be adjusted in order to compensate for something that is your mistake in the first place (as you said in post #1 "... I accidently release trimmer...")?

[159th_Viper]

Please let me know when/if there's a vid depicting a maneuver with the CPTM off and controls not re-centered is available. I'm curious.

 

4l_LhCRIRgo

 

A vast majority of these manoeuvres depicted above flown as such.

 

Did I get that right? In that case, I'll recant my earlier statement that you were wrong, I'd just state that you selected a phrasing that could most easily be misunderstood.

 

Yes, you got it right.

 

As for you misunderstanding, how on earth was I supposed to phrase it otherwise, keeping in mind the context of the discussion and the OP's problem of 'locked controls'? In any event, no worries - bygones.

 

What really counts for options B is that the same problem could surface without CPTM....

 

OK - you tell me how the controls are going to be 'locked' with CPTM box unticked - I missed something there. Always willing to be enlightened though.

 

I think we all need to figure out how to fly the Shark, and this kind of learning includes not accidentally releasing the trim button.

 

Again, capable of misinterpretation, especially to newcomers to these boards: There is no good reason for you holding the trim button depressed for any length of time for normal flight. As such any mention of 'not accidentally releasing the trim button' is irrelevant when employing the 'Trim-Immediate-Release' method.

 

Obviously goes without saying that the method is valid for other ways/techniques of flying. Does however result in the problem of the OP, ie 'locked controls'. The issue is deceptively simple:

 

But in sometimes I accidently release trimmer and press it again, which leads to confusion for 1-2 seconds (Helicopter doesn't respond). I need to release trimmer and recenter to regain control.

 

The above quote will not happen with CPTM unticked. Apart from locked controls, all else remains the same. There is no need to release the trimmer and recentre to regain control.

 

Apart from the penalty imposed by one method, there is no difference. Why subject yourself to the penalty?

[ZaltysZ]

CPTM method disables controls when trim button is released, and enables controls again only if physical controls are brought inside activation zone, which is close to neutral position. This means, that accidental release of trim button or failing to neutralize controls precisely end up in uncontrollable aircraft.

 

OP suggests simple thing: if trim button is pressed again before controls are neutralized, sim should enable controls instantly and behave like trim hasn't been released. In other words: successive trim press should cancel trim release, if that is done before neutralizing controls.

[kylania]

OP suggests simple thing: if trim button is pressed again before controls are neutralized, sim should enable controls instantly and behave like trim hasn't been released. In other words: successive trim press should cancel trim release, if that is done before neutralizing controls.

 

He asked "My question is: Is it possible to make trimmer button always to activate trimming mode, even when after last trimmer release, recentering is not done?" and yes, it is possible, by not using CPTM. :)

 

Per the manual "trim release" isn't even a real thing, it's a gameplay concession by the devs anyway.

[ZaltysZ]

Do you really think the software should be adjusted in order to compensate for something that is your mistake in the first place (as you said in post #1 "... I accidently release trimmer...")?

 

Well, software is accounted for absence of FFB, and has compromise trimming methods for non FFB users, however those methods change the effects of some pilot mistakes (i.e. same mistake with FFB stick would not be very noticeable).

[PeterP]

Yes I read your post.

Timer is not good idea.

Simulator doesn't need to know if I accidental released the trimmer button or released it normally. It must react as supposed to do. With only one exception:

If I press trimmer again, before returning controls to their neutral position,

Simulator must assume that I already returned controls to their neutral position, and pressed trimmer again. Also simulator must assume position of the real controls in the moment of pressing the trimmer as last trimmed position of the simulated controls.

I don't know how clear is this. May be I must try to describe algorithm in pseudo programming language.

 

 

Yes - describing it in a pseudo programming language would make definitive sense in this case - also very helpful to allocate a logical failures.

 

My only concern about this method is how to handle a event like this:

 

If trimmer-button is released and you enter the neutral zone Without wanting to trigger the re-trim. - because entering the neutral zone is necessary for the manoeuvre you are flying ?

 

And again - I'm very unfamiliar with flying with a non-FFB stick (and I don't intend to learn it now) but I think that this script could be written with autohotkey (even defining what happens when you enter a special Joy range)

and can be executed in DCS without changing the scripts in DCS at all.

 

 

So please work out a exact instruction in pseudo programming language

and I will try to rewrite it for autohotkey.