Gunnery Tutorial P-51 Enemies Too Fast

[Shaderhacker]

This tutorial is useless and by far the worst one of the bunch. They put you up against your own aircraft and these dudes, will totally outrun your plane at will. Not only that, but they never allow you to even get remotely close to fire from behind. I sat here for almost an hour just trying to down 1 plane and finally gave up after they just kept flying completely out of sight.

 

They should make this tutorial extremely easy since it's meant for people who haven't even dog fighted with the P-51 nor know anything about ACM. At least cripple the planes so that they go 2X slower than your own P-51. Or make them suffer the effects of Gs as well so that when they pull this hard turn, they will black out too. ;)

 

Anyway, I'm going to skip this mission since it's so hard and move on to ground tutorial.

[SackDestroyer]

I do agree, it doesn't make much sense to try to teach people how to shoot planes down if you haven't taught them how to catch them yet.

[Suchacz]

I think, that it is as easy as it can be...

 

Those two Ponys are only flying from left to right and vice versa, they are not attacking you at any way.

 

This aerial gunnery demands a LOT of practice and gentle moves with your stick. Try to set your X and Y curves to about 20. It works very well then in my case.

[EvilBivol-1]

We'll set the target P-51s to a lower speed for the next update.

[Suchacz]

We'll set the target P-51s to a lower speed for the next update.

That should be good, you can try more techniques that way. Lead/lag pursuit, high/low yo-yo, attacks from flanks... :thumbup:

 

Now it is only a chase with full throttle all the time

[Kalahari]

We'll set the target P-51s to a lower speed for the next update.

 

 

Thanks ED.

[TimmyD]

We'll set the target P-51s to a lower speed for the next update.

 

Phew... I thought it was just me that struggled.....

[Shaderhacker]

I'm glad I posted! Come on guys! We need to be more communicative about this awesome sim so we can get it to be the most enjoyable!

[jib]

I thought they where going quite slowly, I was having trouble with overshooting them sometimes.

I managed to kill the first one quickly and then catch the second one from 5 miles away on my first try, then I snaped my wing off in a dive ,but I can't have it all my own way :)

[-Mop-]

Nice... thx ED

 

:thumbup:

[WildBillKelsoe]

This tutorial is useless and by far the worst one of the bunch. They put you up against your own aircraft and these dudes, will totally outrun your plane at will. Not only that, but they never allow you to even get remotely close to fire from behind. I sat here for almost an hour just trying to down 1 plane and finally gave up after they just kept flying completely out of sight.

 

They should make this tutorial extremely easy since it's meant for people who haven't even dog fighted with the P-51 nor know anything about ACM. At least cripple the planes so that they go 2X slower than your own P-51. Or make them suffer the effects of Gs as well so that when they pull this hard turn, they will black out too. ;)

 

Anyway, I'm going to skip this mission since it's so hard and move on to ground tutorial.

 

They just need persistence..

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?7ps6j4qt9dorlcs

 

keep a close eye on the ball and try to get the gyro to touch the cross (rudder) and this is where the bullets will hit.

Edited September 7, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe

[Stuntie]

This raises another issue too. One that plagued Il2 - super trimmed max speed AI. The AI there often had perfectly trimmed and set up planes that frequently outran you on takeoff, and could be difficult to catch up as they flew everywhere max speed perfectly trimmed and never slowed down to cruise speed for you to catch up.

 

The P-51's in this mission are suposed to be the same as we fly, But they totaly out perform us. You can't even catch up with them in a lead pursuit.

 

It may be that we need some AS (Artificial Stupidity) to go with the AI to calm down AI performance so it is not always 100% efficient at engine management all the time, and don't run everywhere full speed. (ED - ask your flight mechanics what they would do to a pilot that flew like that...)

[Chianti]

Gunnery and Damage

 

Hi All,

This is my first posting so it may be a little wordy as there are a couple of points that I would like to comment on and a couple of things that in my opinion need fixing in any forthcoming patch.

 

I completely agree with the forum complaints about the speed of the opponents. Generally the opponents (unless they slow down in a turn) are almost impossible to catch. Even when you do manage to get close enough to damage their engine, so that they are belching copious amounts of black smoke, they still miraculously manage to out-accelerate and out-distance your own completely undamaged P51.

 

When when you do eventually catch an adversary the damage inflicted by the six .50 cal machine guns is minimal and not at all realistic. It seems that only the bullets that hit precisely where the pipper is situated cause any damage, making it a long and laborious process to shoot down an opponent. This renders lead shooting pretty much ineffective as the plane fails to make contact with the cone of bullets ahead of it These bullets mysteriously seem to scatter anywhere and everywhere except on the target. In reality (as any number of WWII Gun-cam videos on Youtube and elsewhere verify) the six - nota bene: six! - .50 cal machine guns produced a devastating cone of fire. Any target (air or ground) caught in such a cone for just a matter of seconds was severely damaged. According to WWII pilot interviews, a two or three second burst was enough to bring down most fighter aircraft.

 

Although this is an excellent sim, the above failings make it extremely frustrating to fly.

 

One other slightly off topic point I would like to make while I am at it. I love the authenticity of the start-up and take off procedures - best P51 start-up out there. But the behaviour during landing leaves much to be desired in my humble opinion. The plane seems to lack 'weight' as it lands. It floats around like a WWI bi-plane - although landings in Rise of Flight are much more solid and easier to control. If you come in slightly fast and the P51 bounces on the runway it soars up behaving more like a glider than a fighter aircraft. I have tried landing both with flaps and without flaps, to try and make the plane adhere to the ground more, but no matter what flap settings I use it still floats like a paper plane - even when I fly the approach veeery slowly. Any tips would be appreciated. Or a fix in the patch.

 

Very much looking forward to this patch for what is a very fine but sadly often frustrating sim. A final question: will Steam install the patch automatically?

[Merlin-27]

Hi All,

This is my first posting so it may be a little wordy as there are a couple of points that I would like to comment on and a couple of things that in my opinion need fixing in any forthcoming patch.

 

I completely agree with the forum complaints about the speed of the opponents. Generally the opponents (unless they slow down in a turn) are almost impossible to catch. Even when you do manage to get close enough to damage their engine, so that they are belching copious amounts of black smoke, they still miraculously manage to out-accelerate and out-distance your own completely undamaged P51.

 

When when you do eventually catch an adversary the damage inflicted by the six .50 cal machine guns is minimal and not at all realistic. It seems that only the bullets that hit precisely where the pipper is situated cause any damage, making it a long and laborious process to shoot down an opponent. This renders lead shooting pretty much ineffective as the plane fails to make contact with the cone of bullets ahead of it These bullets mysteriously seem to scatter anywhere and everywhere except on the target. In reality (as any number of WWII Gun-cam videos on Youtube and elsewhere verify) the six - nota bene: six! - .50 cal machine guns produced a devastating cone of fire. Any target (air or ground) caught in such a cone for just a matter of seconds was severely damaged. According to WWII pilot interviews, a two or three second burst was enough to bring down most fighter aircraft.

 

Although this is an excellent sim, the above failings make it extremely frustrating to fly.

 

One other slightly off topic point I would like to make while I am at it. I love the authenticity of the start-up and take off procedures - best P51 start-up out there. But the behaviour during landing leaves much to be desired in my humble opinion. The plane seems to lack 'weight' as it lands. It floats around like a WWI bi-plane - although landings in Rise of Flight are much more solid and easier to control. If you come in slightly fast and the P51 bounces on the runway it soars up behaving more like a glider than a fighter aircraft. I have tried landing both with flaps and without flaps, to try and make the plane adhere to the ground more, but no matter what flap settings I use it still floats like a paper plane - even when I fly the approach veeery slowly. Any tips would be appreciated. Or a fix in the patch.

 

Very much looking forward to this patch for what is a very fine but sadly often frustrating sim. A final question: will Steam install the patch automatically?

 

My only advice would be: Keep Flying.

 

You'll notice the bullets start to hit harder and the landings become smoother. There is a pretty decent learning curve but all the more rewarding in the end. If you hit an AI with a good concentration of fire it takes only second to destroy it. And if you land at the proper speed and angle the bounce can be eliminated.

[ZaltysZ]

I have tried landing both with flaps and without flaps, to try and make the plane adhere to the ground more, but no matter what flap settings I use it still floats like a paper plane - even when I fly the approach veeery slowly. Any tips would be appreciated.

 

Just get near the surface of runway, flare and pull a little bit more. Plane will stall and you will end with a nice 3 point landing.

[HotTom]

Any tips would be appreciated.

 

Chianti, I see you just joined this month. Give yourself six months and fly every day. It takes a long time to develop the muscle memory that allows you to "feel" the P-51 intuitively and instinctively. One day, it suddenly is there for you. The plane flies the way you want it to. Really.

 

Fun fact: Robin Olds had 250 hours of training flight time in his P-38 before they sent him to Europe (where he later swapped for a P-51). How many hours do you have in your P-51? Look in your log book.

 

No patch ever made will make up for lack of practice and patience.:joystick:

Edited February 27, 2014 by HotTom

[StitchJones]

Try a Wheel Landing. A three point landing is not always advisable especially in windy conditions. Read a book on flying Conventional gear (Tail Dragger) airplanes. Speed control is a must. If you float it is because your approach speed is too high or you may be pitching up too rapidly. Also watch your glide path. If you come in too steep it will be harder to dissipate airspeed. There is nothing wrong with this simulation. It is dead on. This is coming from a Flight Instructor and a 8000hour pilot.

[roronono]

Is the enemies still to fast in this training mission even with the latest update? I am unable to get close to them even with full throttle/full rpm and lead pursuit. Any suggestions on the gunnery training?

[NineLine]

I ran through this last night, using lead pursuit I was able to keep up and gun down the target. No its not simple, you have to stay ahead of the bandits moves, but I didnt find it overly difficult to maintain him within no more than 0.3 at all times. The second target took more work, but same tactics worked with him. I find if you get too trigger happy too soon, that is when you can start loosing ground against the target.

[kampf]

last night I spent over 1 hour on the gunnery solo mission. I downed the first enemy p51 in about 2 minutes or less (as with the other 2 of the previous "explained" training mission) , but the last one!!! omg something have to be screwed up!

I fired thousand of bullets (unlimited ammo), changed sight between gyro and fixed, tuned the sight range several times, "spray and prayed" for half an hour, nothing!

The bandit kept flying far and near, far and near, like an old time arcade game. I saw the tracers going above and below the target. The more I kept trying the more I realised that behaviour wasn't normal. I had to swap fuel tanks frequently to keep the weight balanced. Another somewhat strange thing, that make me believe this training mission is scripted, was that I had the throttle fully opened for almost all the time (secretly hoping to blow the engine and put that sh#t to an end) but nothing, the merlin had no problem.

Well, after some time I managed to hit the bastard a triple of times and he started losing smoke from one wing and fuselage! "the magic is over SoB" I thought.

But he continued extending and turning side to side, close, extend, close, extend... Other rounds on target, but he didn't seem to care... dive, extend, climb, close, turn, roll the other side, etc etc... till I ran out of fuel and crash landed.

Then I tapped F2 twice and saw the damaged immortal P51, full of 50cal holes, with the smoking wing, flying unscared...

WTF waste of time!!!

sorry for rant and bad english

bye

Edited July 2, 2014 by kampf

[kampf]

...Even when you do manage to get close enough to damage their engine, so that they are belching copious amounts of black smoke, they still miraculously manage to out-accelerate and out-distance your own completely undamaged P51.

... It seems that only the bullets that hit precisely where the pipper is situated cause any damage,

... These bullets mysteriously seem to scatter anywhere and everywhere except on the target.

...Although this is an excellent sim, the above failings make it extremely frustrating to fly.

 

TOTALLY AGREED!

 

But the behaviour during landing leaves much to be desired in my humble opinion. The plane seems to lack 'weight' as it lands. It floats around like a WWI bi-plane - although landing

 

I (luckily?) made an unbelievable three point ultra soft landing at the end of the landing dedicated training mission, so I have to tell you: practice practice practice, watch your speed, don't make rough stick or rudder movements on final.

bye

Edited July 2, 2014 by kampf

[CorsairHundo]

Hello,

 

I'm pretty new here so there may be some (a lot of user error). I spent a few nights, a few hours each trying to shoot down these training p-51's with little success. I got a few rounds in a couple the other night but could never get closer then 0.3nm. Tonight I fine tuned my joystick and used the fixed and gyro which seemed better for me?

So I was able to get within 0.02 and put some rounds in this p-51, she was smoking pretty good but I never was able to catch back up. I actually turned to quick and almost lost it, but recovered. By then she was about 1.2nm away and I closed up within 0.8 then she actually pulled away from me as she was smoking lol

 

That's not right?

[Zimmerdylan]

What I find with that training module is that when you very first get into the mission, you pick the plane on the right and full RPM and throttle up to his 6 oclock. You will be around .3 from him at that point. He'll bank right and you place your nose ahead of him. If you want to catch an enemy plane, put your nose to the front of that plane as it banks. The further in front you put it, the faster you will catch him. Don't just trail him or stay behind him, lead on him, act like you are going around him no matter what direction he goes. You will usually catch up to him fairly quickly. When he makes that first bank to the right, if you do this, you will catch up to him. He'll then bank to the left and slow down. At that point, you will have to slow down just to stop from hitting him. You can then take your shot. Now!!! If you want to lose ground on him, point your plane behind his tail. This will cause you to acquire more distance between you and him. After a while....you get the feel of it.

Be sure (if you are using the flower and not the fixed site) that you make the flower the correct size as per his distance or you will have a much harder time hitting and leading your shots into him.

I had the same issues that you are having until I figured this stuff out.

And for the record, the AI can and will occasionally just outrun you. At that point, there isn't much you can do. The AI is set up on a different dynamic as you and it will out perform you if it wants to. Especially if it decides to just make a straight run away from you. It does not do this very often in training but it does happen once in a while. But if it banks, you usually can catch up with it.

[Oldgold]

... till I ran out of fuel and crash landed.

Then I tapped F2 twice and saw the damaged immortal P51, full of 50cal holes, with the smoking wing, flying unscared...

WTF waste of time!!!

sorry for rant and bad english

bye

 

I totally share your frustration here. As a newbie I spent yesterday evening pretty similar to yours. There might be something wrong with the mission but probably its us that arent that good. Lets just practice more.

 

Today I have found this youtube presentation about bullets trajectory. its boring because you have to read but then he shows you 3 exaples in slowmo

all the credit to the Chuck here.

[Charly_Owl]

its boring because you have to read

 

:doh: :lol: