What is DCS?

[neroroxxx]

The SFM is the flight model used in LockOn. The AFM has been used in Flaming Cliffs(2) DCS:BS and DCS:A10

 

For me, the difference between the two is night and day. When i first tired Flaming cliffs and flew the SU25t, I felt the old FM was like Battlefield or something and never really wanted to have go back again.

 

And I don't think I ever will

 

WOW thats a HUGE difference, the A-10A on FC2 and the SU-25T have a huge difference in feel, the A-10A and F-15C are so easy to fly, landing is a cake, they do it themselfs, the su-25t does feel very different when landing and taking off, i didn't know the SFM was what's used for the LOMAC type aircraft, that makes them not worth it to me as study sims on any of them, i don't care if they have simple avionics i wanna feel like im flying them.

 

this is SAD, altho i really, really hope you are wrong because this made me sad...

[159th_Falcon]

Very Very sad news to learn products branded DCS may have a SFM.

Really, its the flight model most of anything that sparked my interest in DCS and Eagle Dynamics.

Now learning that we will accept Lock-On flight models in the DCS Brand......

Really big disappointment for me, lets hope the 3th party devs can come up whit there own AFM.

 

Finger crossed, then again, will be years before 3th parties can releas there DCS branded titles.

And maybe ED can supply them whit an AFM SDK by that time.

 

One can only hope........

So far, im greatly disappointed by this VERY sad news.

 

 

 

 

~S~

[EtherealN]

Moderation note: I split the stall discussion to it's own thread, here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89941

[GGTharos]

An advanced flight model obeys the laws of physics.

 

And the SFM doesn't? ...

 

It is a set of physics equations and algorithms that create a basis for the FM that mimic real life situations. In other words a stall will happen given these conditions and it varies with altitude and pressure and wind and amount of fuel and loadout, weight, drag...

It will simulate edge-of-the-envelope conditions much better than SFM, but it is by no means perfects. It's just very good. ;)

 

Basically there is a shit ton of math that goes into a detailed flight model. Simplified flight models only model some are all conditions with less detail. Say instead a stall always happens at 90 knots no matter what altitude or wind speed.

 

There's quite a bit of math that goes into an SFM as well. The AFM is more complex, but the 'laws of physics' aren't likely to be that much different. Although more detail is always welcome, the fact is that an AFM will not make you a less sucky pilot, and if you suck at flying an AFM plane, you'll suck just as bad with the SFM one. It can easily go the other way as well, though I think not everyone things of the words 'flying your plane' the same way :P

Edited June 12, 2012 by GGTharos

[Spetz]

.. We even hope to look into a train simulation component in the future!

 

..Third parties are provided access to our Standard Flight Model (SFM), which ED can assist to adjust and improve to suit the requirements.

 

Honestly, why the f&^k would I want to control a train in DCS world? IMO that is a complete waste of resources.. And no AFM? If DCS really wanted to release it, you would find a way. Well, at this time you just lost some cash from this guy in regards to 3rd party mods. To bad.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Spetz

[GGTharos]

I'm sure the train reference was added a joke, but also to show the variety that DCS is capable of. It's okay, you don't have to care. Maybe someone else does. Just because it doesn't float your boat, it doesn't make it a waste of resources.

 

As for the FM thing, the FM will be at whatever level the 3rd party devs are able to deliver it at; currently ED offers the SFM only because the AFM is in the process of being properly documented and hashed out to make it useable by third parties. Third parties will also be able to supply their own FM engine AFAIK.

 

Honestly, why the f&^k would I want to control a train in DCS world? IMO that is a complete waste of resources..

Edited June 12, 2012 by GGTharos

[Spetz]

Like I said, in my own opinion. If it is a joke, great. But if not, then, as stated, in my own opinion, a waste of resources. As for your statement about the AFM being "hashed" out before being available, perhaps that should be mentioned in the original post so as to avoid confusion. There is no talk about that in the original thread.

 

I do apologize for the tone used in my other post, but I was a little peeved about it. We'll see what happens I guess.

 

Third parties are provided access to our Standard Flight Model (SFM), which ED can assist to adjust and improve to suit the requirements. Given the extremely complex nature of our Advanced Flight Model (AFM) in DCS we are currently unable to provide a SDK for 3rd party use. However, 3rd parties are also invited to offer their own Flight Models should it prove to be satisfactory.

[GGTharos]

It was implied, as Wags posted, the AFM is currently not available, but he also pointed out that they can provide their own FM engines.

 

While I understand how you might get peeved, you're really fussing with way too much negativity towards a platform that has just been opened up. I don't get the AFM snobbery going around these days.

 

Like I said, in my own opinion. If it is a joke, great. But if not, then, as stated, in my own opinion, a waste of resources. As for your statement about the AFM being "hashed" out before being available, perhaps that should be mentioned in the original post so as to avoid confusion. There is no talk about that in the original thread.

 

I do apologize for the tone used in my other post, but I was a little peeved about it. We'll see what happens I guess.

[159th_Viper]

I don't get the AFM snobbery going around these days.

 

Might be attributable to a lack of understanding. Take two examples:

 

1- Scripted landings, which are self-explanatory.

 

2 - Feeling of flight between A-10A and A-10C.

 

At first glance, a radical difference between SFM and AFM. By admission the AFM is also extremely complex, inferring that the SFM is not, ergo there exists a large enough unexplained difference to cause grave concern. We are always most afraid of the unknown :)

[EtherealN]

Regarding trains, I have a question for you:

 

If a third party developer makes an addon that is essentially something like those train simulators, in which way have you lost anything? You haven't lost any money, since you probably wouldn't purchase it.

 

What has happened though is that there's revenue coming in to ED from those that did purchase it. This helps fund ED. And that helps you get those things you want too.

 

Seriously people, think for a few moments before posting in anger. ED isn't saying you have to buy everything that's released for DCS World. You are given the opportunity to do so, of course, but you are not forced to do it.

 

If you don't want to fly an AT-802U, don't purchase one. It really is that simple. :)

[WRAITH]

All I'm going to say is -"HiFi STUDY COMBAT FLIGHT SIMULATOR" ........ PLEASE!:pilotfly::smartass:

 

EDIT- Why, cause I want to learn to fly many types of HiFi A/C's preferably F-16 / F18's

variants in different Theaters with Dynamic War Campaigns...................

 

............... never getting bored! :joystick: :smilewink: :thumbup:

 

Hi all,

 

I completely understand what this thread is about although the reason for this Forum is an "Aerial Combat Simulator", I would say we are feeling kinda worried that we simply wont get what is quoted just above and with many links to what we are here for that is what needs clearing up.

 

"WE ARE COMBAT SIMMERS HERE PRIMARILY FOR THAT", produce that first we pay fair price then all other fun stuff, is okay with us since DCS is a business and any revenue would be to make profit and sustain itself, just as long as we customers get what we want to buy or else the target audience is missed.

 

The future of DCS is "Aerial Combat Sims", but my strong opinion is develop it from the "F4 Concept of what is a Combat Flight Sim with many A/C's on offer and improve on overall product!

 

My view is post a "5 Year Development Plan and Direction of DCS", so we are all on the same page a short post with vague statements isn't clear enough.

 

Best free market consultation advice you get here, click on links in quote!

 

Enjoy Folks!

 

Me still hoping for the best :thumbup:

Edited June 12, 2012 by WRAITH

[joey45]

It's not Pokamon where you have to get them all...

[BHawthorne]

I think some people are distressed about fidelity are not accounting for the learning curve. I've seen several posts specific to IRIS that clearly state that they need to start out simple and work up to advanced. Got to crawl before you walk, and got to walk before you run. I think it's unrealistic for people to expect 100% advanced aircraft from third parties immediately until they work through things and begin to understand the mechanics to get there.

[KaspeR32]

Of course there is a learning curve.

 

To counter that though, ED knows their target costumers. Time and time again I've seen reviews of Black Shark and A-10C and they've all said "Not for the non-hardcore simmer" type things.

So if ED knows that a lot of their costumers enjoy the AFM of titles like BS, A-10C & P-51D, why wouldn't they have had an SDK ready for 3rd party developers before they started taking contracts?

 

Also, for people that don't understand why the community is upset about only the SFM available to 3rd party developers, it's easy really.. because we're all here because of the AFMs! DCS does not exist for most people without some kind of AFM. I know I for one won't be buying ANYTHING else for DCS: World unless it's up to par with at least the Su-25t FM. Now if that IS some version of the SFM, I'm sold. If that is the AFM, well, I'll be looking for that FM in whatever I buy in the future.

[104th_Crunch]

Choice is always a good thing. As long as there is a hi-fi jet or jets in development, then we have our choice. There are others out there that actually dont mind a something less realistic. Let them have their choice as well.

 

Now, if the situation was that only FC2 level of aircraft was in development, then I would be worried. Right now though it is not the case. You need to look at the larger picture. There will be options for those like me who want highly realistic simulations and options for others as well. Meanwhile more people will join the community and everyone wins.

 

Think about the constructive path this is leading to. In thend buy what you choose and it will be all good. You have to believe that ED is not throwimg out the idea of hi-fi simulatioms. They are just widening the market.

[KaspeR32]

 

You have to believe that ED is not throwimg out the idea of hi-fi simulatioms.

 

I can do that. I'm a Mets fan.

[104th_Crunch]

I can do that. I'm a Mets fan.

Ouch lol. SFM is the last of your worries.

[KaspeR32]

Can somebody please explain the actual differences between the SFM and AFM? is it Flaming Cliffs 2 compared to A-10C?

Thanks!

 

This is some of what we'll be missing =\

 

In version 1.1 of LockOn, a new flight dynamics model was created for the Su-25 and Su-25T.

 

This section describes some of the many remarkable features of the advanced flight model.

 

Aircraft dynamics are calculated on the basis of the same physics equations describing translational and rotational motion of a solid body under the influence of external forces and moments, disregarding the nature of their origin.

 

• Trajectory and angle movements look more natural due to correct modeling of the aircraft’s inertial properties.

• Transitions between the flight modes in a smooth manner without abrupt changes of angle rotational speeds and attitude (for example: after a tail-slide or when landing with an

angle of roll on one landing wheel).

• Gyroscopic effect with the aircraft’s rotation taken into account.

• The asymmetric effect of external forces is taken into account, along with the effect of

external forces not going through the center-of-gravity (for example: engine thrust, drag

chute forces). These forces are correctly modeled at any flight mode and cause an adequate rotary moment.

The center-of-gravity can change its location within the speed axis system.

• The modeling of lateral and longitudinal center of mass has been introduced. This can

change depending on fuel load and weapon loads.

• The asymmetrical loading of weapon and fuel pylons, which influence the characteristics

of lateral control (depending on flight speed, regular overload, etc), is also modeled.

When calculating aerodynamic characteristics, the aircraft is represented as a combination of airframe components (fuselage, outer wing panel, stabilizer, etc). Separate calculations for the

aerodynamic performance each of these components is performed. This is done over the entire

range of local angles of attack and slip (including supercritical), local dynamic pressure and Mach number. This takes into consideration the change and level of destruction of control surfaces and various airframe components.

• Aerodynamics are accurately modeled in the entire range of angles of attack and glide.

• The efficiency of lateral control, and degree of lateral and static lateral stability, now depend on the angle of attack, longitudinal and lateral center-of-gravity.

• The wing autorotation effect when performing a rolling rotation at high angles of attack

is modeled.

• Kinematic, aerodynamic and inertial interaction of longitudinal, dihedral and lateral channels (yaw movement when performing a rolling turn, rolling motion at rudder pedal forward, etc).

• Angle of glide availability is determined by the pilot’s efforts and the plane’s position.

• When an airframe component is destroyed, the plane’s motion is modeled in a natural

way. The damaged component’s aerodynamics can be fully or partially removed from

the aircraft’s aerodynamic calculations.

• The flight model guarantees a realistic implementation of stalls (rocking wings with simultaneous course oscillation).

• Various characteristics of aerodynamic shaking depending on the flight mode have been

introduced. This occurs due to store loading, exceeding allowable angle of attack, Mach

number, etc.

The jet engines are represented as a complex model of the main components: compressor, combustion chamber, turbine and starter-generator.

• Idle RPM depends on the speed mode: altitude and Mach number, weather conditions:

pressure and temperature.

• Low RPM over-speeding is modeled.

• Engine throttling and its controllability depend on rotation speed.

• Gas temperature behind the turbine is dependent on engine operating mode, flight mode

and weather condition.

• Specific fuel consumption is non-linearly dependent on engine operating mode and flight

mode.

• The dynamics of engine operating parameters (gas speed and temperature) during engine start and shut down is accurately modeled. The mode of engine autorotation from

ram airflow, engine seize (accompanied by continued temperature rise) in case of engine

start at the incorrect throttle position, engine restart and windmill air restart.

The left and right hydraulic system model includes models of sources and consumers of hydraulic

pressure.

• Each hydraulic system supplies its own group of hydraulic pressure users (landing gear,

aileron actuator, flaps, wing leading edge flaps, adjustable stabilizer, nose wheel steering, brake system, etc).

• Pressure in the left and right hydraulic systems depends on the balance of hydraulic

pump efficiency and operating fluid consumption by hydraulic pressure users (boosters,

actuators, etc). Hydraulic pumps efficiency depends on the right and left engines speed

respectively, operating fluid consumption depends on their work intensity.

• Both catastrophic and partial hydraulic actuators failure when pressure drops in a corresponding hydraulic system is modeled.

The control system includes models of the primary components: trimming mechanism and trimming effect, hydraulic boosters in roll channel, and yaw dampener.

• Pitch trimming, the yawing model and the aileron trimming mechanism model are all

based on a different logics. In particular, the pitch trimming position does not influence

rate controller position at near-zero flight speed. Trimming tab serviceability depends on

electrical power in the aircraft electrical system.

• In the event of pressure drop in the left side of the fuselage, lateral control worsens with

the rise of indicated flight airspeed. Longitudinal control does not depend on fuselage

pressure.

• The extension and retraction speed of high-lift wing and adjustable stabilizer surfaces

depends on fuselage pressure.

• The extension of high-lift wing devices for a more maneuverable configuration at a high

indicated airspeed can lead first to partial and then to complete hydraulic actuator blocking. This causes fuselage pipe damage, hydraulic fluid leakage and fuselage pressure

drop.

• Landing gear extension at a high indicated airspeed can first lead to partial and then to

complete hydraulic actuator blocking. This causes fuselage pipe damage, hydraulic fluid

leakage and fuselage pressure drop.

 

Who needs all that?! ;)

[104th_Crunch]

Don't forget about A2A missile physics modelling. As it is right now in FC, it could also benefit from AFM.

[cichlidfan]

How many things on that list have no bearing on Flight Model? Just sayin' ;)

[KaspeR32]

How many things on that list have no bearing on Flight Model? Just sayin' ;)

 

I'm assuming without the availability of ED's AFM, ALL of those systems also won't be modeled with an SFM setup. That's a big deal. But like I said, I can believe that we will still see SOME aircraft in the future using the AFM.

[Mr_Burns]

I think the idea of maintaining a "world" with add on vehicles is brilliant, thanks for the update.

 

I dont get the negative vibes, sometimes I would love to fly as the search and rescue bird, waiting in the valley for the A-10C to clear the AA and Paratroopers, flying in and picking up the downed pilot under fire from remaining paratroopers and then flying out under cover of some F-15s.

 

On the other side, you have some Migs flying in to takle the F-15, some AA guys trying to take out the S&R Bird and the A-10s and russian helo inserting some Paratroopers to try and find the downed pilot.

 

Earlier, on the other side of the map, a fligt refueller is filling ready to refuel the F-15s and A-10s and an Awacs is just taking off, getting into place and providing threats before the codeword "IRENE" is given.

[WRAITH]

Oh, I forgot...... What is DCS.....A Combat Sim with F-18 Carrier Ops :pilotfly:

 

 

Realism....

 

Anything else is just a game..... goto here for games....http://au.ign.com/

 

No kool-aid here ..... :lock: :smilewink: :D

 

LoL

 

Thanks :thumbup:

Edited June 13, 2012 by WRAITH

[Fox One]

Can somebody please explain the actual differences between the SFM and AFM?

 

This is just an example for people maybe less familiar with Lock On / Flaming Cliffs.

 

Let's say you are in Lock On taxiing in an F-15 at about 15 kts. You do a sharp turn, and in the middle of it you suddenly release the joystick twist or rudder pedal input. The plane will stop from turning that millisecond when the rudder input is neutral, behaving like it's a small plane made of paper and not a 20 tonne or more machine. That's because it doesn't have any form of angular inertia modeled.

 

Then you taxi on the runway at a pretty similar speed in DCS A-10C. Perhaps it's better to watch the plane from outside and from front. Do a sharp turn using full rudder input, and when the turning rate is greatest suddenly apply full rudder the opposite side. See what's happening? Yeah, that baby has plenty of angular inertia and it behaves like a big, heavy object should. Also look how the front tire gets dragged sideways untill the plane stops turning in the initial side and goes the other way.

 

Look from the outside how the front tire gets compressed when you taxi slowly then suddenly brake. Look at the tires to see how the brakes work with antiskid on/off. Look how the shock absorbers work while taxiing & turning & braking. See how when you brake the plane will turn slightly because the front wheel is not on the plane's centerline.

 

All this inertia and other complex stuff modelling happens all the time, on the ground or in the air. Nothing is scripted. This is the real deal. It just behaves the way it should. There is no other PC simulator in the world today that does this better.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Fox One

[Fox One]

currently ED offers the SFM only because the AFM is in the process of being properly documented and hashed out to make it useable by third parties.

 

I really hope that happens.

 

About third parties developing their own AFM, personally I have huge doubts. Not huge, gigantic. Even for a very-subsonic plane like A-10, right now ED is the only one that can do it.

 

Anybody believes that, after "getting used" to ED's SFM, IRIS suddenly will be able to develop their own AFM for F-14? That's crazy. A supersonic plane with AFM is a great challenge even for ED.

 

For me it's quite clear. Either ED will greatly help third party developers to bulid their FM (AFM), or there will be nothing but SFM.