Su-25T...what a turd

[Rongor]

I dont understand the discussion. Will FC3 and DCS World modules be playable on the same server?

[EtherealN]

I dont understand the discussion. Will FC3 and DCS World modules be playable on the same server?

 

FC3 is intended to be a DCS World module, so yes.

[OutOnTheOP]

Sorry, I'll have to get into this one here :D

As for avionics making the A2A fight ... you don't want to be facing DCS level modern air threats. I'll leave it at that.

 

How about we leave the ad hominem attacks out of this and have a grown up conversation now? Wildbill, you too. This is the second post in as many days where you've acted like a pompous ass- I'm sure the guy with a question about P-51 arming switches really appreciated your humor, too.

 

You don't need to imply I'm not smart enough to learn the DCS simulations; I'm already quite competent on the A-10C, thank you very much.

 

And no, Ethereal, I HAVEN'T "rejected" your "apples vs apples" comparison- I take issue with your basic assumptions: namely, that more complexity always equals more capabilities. I disagree.

 

Using the radar example (with some arbitrary simplifications- and NO, I don't care about discussing specific modes on specific aircraft, that's just a stupid straw man to distract from the issue at hand):

 

Let's say the DCS:F-XX version has 3 radar modes. Mode A has 50km detection in look-up, 30 km detection in look-down, and a 20* search sector. Mode B has 60 km in look-up, 10 km in look-down, and a 40* search sector. Mode C has 80 km in look-up, 30 km in look-down, 10* search sector, but is easily notched. Obviously, a good pilot knows what mode to use in a given situation, and chooses appropriately. This gives the good DCS:F-XX pilot a huge advantage against a pilot who doesn't know how to DCS:F-XX, or against DCS:F-YY, which doesn't have modes B and C available.

 

But FC:F-XX simplifies all those modes into ONE mode. The radar has "on" and "off" only. "on" has 80km in look-up, 30 km in look-down, 40* search sector, and doesn't suffer notching issues. The FC:F-XX pilot doesn't have to go heads-down to flip switches, doesn't have to worry about ever being in the wrong mode, and gets all the advantages of all modes. Against DCS:F-XX, FC:F-XX is now at an advantage, no?

 

Now, ultimately it comes down to how the programmers design the simple version: they CAN design the simple version so that the pilot only gets mode "A" and can't switch it, or they can make a combined mode "A-B-C" in the simplified version. I find it hard to believe that they're going to trim off capabilities in the interest of making "detailed" modes in a "simplified" model.

[GGTharos]

How about we leave the ad hominem attacks out of this and have a grown up conversation now?

 

I don't know where you found an ad-hominem in there, it wasn't intended.

 

But FC:F-XX simplifies all those modes into ONE mode. The radar has "on" and "off" only. "on" has 80km in look-up, 30 km in look-down, 40* search sector, and doesn't suffer notching issues. The FC:F-XX pilot doesn't have to go heads-down to flip switches, doesn't have to worry about ever being in the wrong mode, and gets all the advantages of all modes. Against DCS:F-XX, FC:F-XX is now at an advantage, no?

 

That is completely incorrect. FC2 aircraft are subject to all this stuff. Further, they lack modes that can give you longer range detection via 'other means', as well as other features. I don't know how you came up with that ... both and DCS and FC2 pilot will manipulate all their combat stuff via HOTAS, as far as say an F-15/16/18 is concerned. The DCS version might have some extra optional stuff in the pit that you could operate, but you won't be operating that in the middle of combat one way or another. Further, a DCS aircraft would model a lot more radar automation than an FC2 aircraft; not just more modes, but more user friendly.

 

Now, ultimately it comes down to how the programmers design the simple version: they CAN design the simple version so that the pilot only gets mode "A" and can't switch it, or they can make a combined mode "A-B-C" in the simplified version. I find it hard to believe that they're going to trim off capabilities in the interest of making "detailed" modes in a "simplified" model.

 

They don't need to trim anything; FC2 aircraft specifically won't be able to compete well with their DCS counterparts when/if those come around.

New FC2 level aircraft won't be as competitive either. At some point working in all the details required to make these equivalent turns your FC level plane into a DCS plane in terms of avionics.

[Frostie]

After all, the simplified versions automatically perform switch flips for you: taking it to it's logical (but extreme) extent, what's to stop the simplification from going back to the old EA "press t to cycle through available targets" days? You mean to tell me that the pilot that has to manually select radar search sectors, slew the cuing bug on the target, etc etc has a qualititative advantage over the one that hits a single keystroke and has the simulation do the work for him? Not buying it.

 

You are so wrong it's not even funny. Have you actually flown the Toad?

 

When I start up the A-10C I go through the process of switches to fire everything up and get my nav alignment complete, when I start up the Toad I power up, left engine start, followed by right engine start then go make a cuppa while my nav aligns.

 

To engage a target you say the DCS pilot has to slew the cuing bug on the target etc. and the 25T pilot just has to press a key??

Are you serious he has to do exactly the same as the A-10C pilot - yes, find his target which without a sniper pod is a hell of a lot harder than with, then he has to slew to it, lock it, engage laser and then rifle while keeping the target locked.

The A-10 C pilot has the advantage of finding the target with the sniper pod, designating it, supplying his buddies with the info and then having the freedom and luxury to process the attack when and how he wants to in double quick and effective time. He doesn't even need to hastily slew like the Toad pilot while ingressing on the target because his sniper pod rules. It is now just a simple case of lock and rifle that Maverick and get out of there, hell he doesn't even have to worry about dropping chaff or flares because his MWS sorts all that out for him.

 

 

When it comes to A2A between these hulking pigs then both have one switch to press 'switch to A2A' (Mastermode), it ain't hard to do in either aircraft but what happens in that combat is down to pilot skill and using the advantages of the aircraft, nothing to dow ith how complex your switchology is.

 

 

 

 

But FC:F-XX simplifies all those modes into ONE mode. The radar has "on" and "off" only. "on" has 80km in look-up, 30 km in look-down, 40* search sector, and doesn't suffer notching issues. The FC:F-XX pilot doesn't have to go heads-down to flip switches, doesn't have to worry about ever being in the wrong mode, and gets all the advantages of all modes. Against DCS:F-XX, FC:F-XX is now at an advantage, no?

 

 

Doesn't suffer notching issues? Ofcourse he does.

I'm sorry but I don't think you're talking with any experience of FC2 at all, whether flying FC2, DCS or RL if you're going heads down to adjust radar modes in the middle of combat then you are doing something drastically wrong, like others have said here, before you enter the combat zone your aircraft should be properly configured for combat, after all that is why the HOTAS was created and why it is such a valuable tool.

Seems to me you're just trying to convince yourself of and unfair advantage that isn't there because in DCS start up procedures are more laboured and there is also more scope to the aircrafts functions.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Frostie

[marcos]

The auto-elevation adjustment on the SPPU pods is pretty cool. Takes the skill out of strafing.

[Supersheep]

Hiding inflexibility behind simplicity doesn't work.

On the other hand, complexity creates opportunities, which is what makes a (mission-)kill.

 

Automations have their uses, but not dumbing-down.

Reasonable design is everything.

 

 

This is the briefest I can put it...

Super-

[winz]

Operating a maverick in FC2 A-10A vs operating it in DCS-A10C (without TGP) is enough of reason for me to bet on the DCS aircraft.

[arteedecco]

I've been messing around for a few days and getting into the heads of the engineers on this one. It seems really outclassed by U.S. hardware. It might be a good aircraft for taking out some, chechen rebels somewhere, but on a modern battlefield it ain't gonna make it. Maybe they have 10,000 of these aircraft to throw into the front, but if you don't know right where the enemy is located (unlikely in modern mobile warfare), it isn't going to survive.

 

I would make some mission to prove my hypothesis if it wasn't so damned complicated to do.

 

Thought from some fellow pilots of this thing?

 

Hey RichardG, thought I might provide a response to your original post since this thread has gone every which way already, including two different flame wars.

 

I liked your original post/question primarily because I have just taken to learning the DCS World Su-25T myself. For me, there were two major thoughts that came to mind:

 

First there was the question of ... what is this plane's capabilities and how do they compare to the DCS A-10C... in other words, "why would I fly the Su-25T over the A-10C?"

 

Second in my mind was, how is the Su-25T model (originally from FC) different from the DCS A-10C.

 

I love learning to fly new aircraft, learning their systems, learning their strengths and weaknesses, and when / how to employ them to their best effect. It leads me to learning a lot about their history and design intent... and also how they get used out of plain necessity.

 

Just so everyone knows, I have unfortunately never flown LOMAC, FC1 - 3, or BS1 - 2.... for now, I'm just a DCS A-10C guy (I will be getting FC3 shortly).

 

Here are my initial thoughts on the DCS World Su-25T after flying the DCS A-10C many many hours (primarily in Multiplayer missions).

 

I am going to make the distinction that I am speaking solely about these aircraft in terms of their existing implementations in DCS World 1.2.2. I am going to talk about my take on how they can be used in DCS World's model of "reality" as it were, NOT how they are, or should be used in Real Life.

 

I was struck by how much ordinance the Su-25T can carry and by how much more range some of it's weapons have over the A-10C (e.g. Kh-25, Kh-29, and the Anti-Radiation Missiles [ARM]).

 

On the other hand, I was struck by how difficult it is to acquire targets in the Su-25T in comparison to the A-10C (in general terms), due to the TAS / SADL / TGP of the A-10C.

 

Here are the differentiators, broken out in a list:

 

Su-25T Advantages

1. Carries more, longer-range anti-tank munitions than A-10C

-- Can carry 8 vikhr anti-tank missiles PLUS a bunch more stand-off missiles / bombs / rockets / guns / AA missiles, the thing can carry a TON of hardware (it flys like a cement truck when loaded up like that)

 

2. Faster than A-10C

 

3. SEAD capability

-- A-10C cannot employ ARM (drat!) and doesn't have weapons that make it properly suited to this role... yes, you can do pop-up Maverick shots, yes you can stay out of the Tunguska, Strela, Shilka, MANPAD engagement envelops and kill them, but... anything with more range / capability than that outclasses the A-10C's capabilities

-- With ARM missiles that have over 20KM range and an AI that doesn't do too much AA trickery, the Su-25T actually has the capacity to eliminate most ground-based, radar-guided AA threats in-game

 

A-10C Advantages

1. Avionics, TGP, SADL, Markpoints, FMS make the A-10C far better in terms of locating and eliminating targets if they are not exactly where you expect them, plus night time capability and TGP allows for constant target visual lock (so long as you maneuver smartly and don't block the camera's optics)

-- In the Su-25T the targeting optics are limited to a forward-facing field of view, so you basically have to find targets with your eyeballs, that your wingman has already located, that are near a recognizable landmark and are pointed out to you by some other source (or mission briefing... hope they don't move!), or get shot at by them first!

 

2. True night/day capability (not a huge differentiator in terms of DCS)

-- Yes, the "Mercury" pod gives the Su-25T night capability, but it's limited to viewing forward and only has 4x magnification, so it's limited compared to the A-10C

 

3. Seems to have more endurance than the Su-25 (without external fuel tanks)

 

4. Better flight characteristics

-- Less pilot workload, though this can be mitigated in the Su-25T by employing the Autopilot well

 

5. I've read in the forums that the A-10C has better anti-IR-missile defensive flare programs (so more survivable)

 

6. GAU-8 ... I mean... that thing is awesome! (yes, the Su-25T has a nice cannon and can add external gun pods too, plus it can depress the gun barrels for relatively level strafing runs, neat! but still the GAU-8 is just unique)

 

So really, for me, it seems that in the current rendition of DCS World (discounting FC3 aircraft), the Su-25T has more capability in terms of adding the SEAD role. It also has more options in terms of AA missilery (not a huge perk, but hey, I'll take it!). And the Su-25T can take out targets using precision laser, or TV guidance from a much greater range than the A-10C. Also, the Su-25T can move faster in general so it can get to / from targets in less time.

 

On the other hand... the A-10C can actually find targets at standoff ranges even if they've moved / are underway, can share targets via SADL, is more survivable against certain IR AA threats, and can find targets and prosecute them better at night/limited vis. Plus, it's cannon can really kill tanks handily.

 

Ideally, though perhaps not what would occur in RL, a flight would have an Su-25T with ARM / SEAD capability and an A-10C to locate targets. Once the Su-25T blasts the big ticket AA items from range, the A-10C hammers in and the Su-25T helps clean up. (I primarily fly with one other wingman, so I think in terms of 2 aircraft, since that's all I can usually muster... would love to try it with more, coordinated pilots of course!).

 

In terms of DCS World, I'd expect that the Su-25T in practiced hands could probably outscore an A-10C if the Su were loaded all-out and all targets were located along the planned waypoints. As soon as the environment gets "dynamic" the A-10C's avionics start to weigh more in its favor. On the other hand, if there are significant ground-based, radar AA threats then the Su-25T (if properly armed) gets a leg up... well... as long as the threats make themselves known before the Su is overhead :)

 

Overall, the Su-25T is a fun addition to DCS World and would not normally be an aircraft I would even consider. I'm very glad to be able to try it and I have found it very satisfying to learn how it compares to the A-10C and how they can interleave to make a unique flight package capable of much more than just A-10Cs or just Su-25s. Part of the fun of a SIM for me is that you can mix and match in ways that would not necessarily occur in RL, but are also not impossible in absolute terms.

 

Happy flying everyone! See you in the skies! :pilotfly:

Edited November 12, 2012 by arteedecco

[Kuky]

^^^

Great sumary and I fully agree but can I add that Su-25T is actually very manouverable with empty weapon stations. I can dogfight an A-10 no problem (well I've done AI only so far) and that thing can pull 7G ;)

[arteedecco]

^^^

Great sumary and I fully agree but can I add that Su-25T is actually very manouverable with empty weapon stations. I can dogfight an A-10 no problem (well I've done AI only so far) and that thing can pull 7G ;)

 

Thanks!

 

And yes, you are right for mentioning that. People in these forums have advised to carry less than 100% load-out on the Su-25T for that very reason; it becomes much more maneuverable at lower weights and empty weapon stations. :joystick:

 

In-fact, one poster mentioned that he never flies with the Vikhr missiles because they detract from maneuverability so much.

 

What is your favorite multi-purpose load-out for the DCS World Su-25T?

[Britchot]

I too have fallen in love with the T-Toad after initially learning the A-10C. My favorite loadout (from memory) is:

 

2x ECM pods on the wings to increase the survivability. Only activate when painted, though.

2x R73s

2x S25L (I believe, it's the one that leaves behind the cylinder when you fire it)

16x 9A4172 Vikhrs

2x Kh-29T for fire and forget targets at maximum range

1x Mercury pod

-Good for all weather. I generally leave the Mercury pod at home during daytime flights.

 

I stand off behind friendly lines and use the Shkval to locate targets to the best of my ability. When I locate a few I'll make a pass with a Kh-29T following with a S25L or two Vikhrs as I get closer then break off and reset to repeat. I try to use the S25Ls early in order to jettison the canisters and reduce their drag. After that then the Vikhrs should be the only A2G ordnance on my aircraft. If I find myself in a dogfight then I can jettison those if I deem necessary. The Su-25T drops the A2G pylons first from outside-in, then the A2A.

 

For SEAD I replace the Murcury pod with the Phantasmigoria (sp) pod as well as the 2x Kh-25MPU and 2x Kh-58U. This leaves me with the Vikhrs to clean up some of the armor. It's hard for me to turn down the 16 missiles instead of 2. If i'm going up for nothing but SEAD then I would leave the bulky pods but normally I'm flying offline missions and maximize my "fun."

[Boberro]

Well, if it is daily I always take Fantasmagoria pod to locate possible radar stations and eliminate them.

 

FOr threats like Tunguska, TOR you can use laser missiles as well. If you have no ARM, use Ch-25MŁ or 29T but unfortunately it is very slow missile and can be easily destroyed.

Vikhr can be used against those SAMs as well ^^

 

Usually I take:

2x ECM

2x S-8 KOM

2x Ch-25MŁ

2x Wichr

2x Ch-29T

1x Fantasmagoria

 

Sometimes I just want to kill poor A-10s so I take 2x Wichr, 2x Ch-25MŁ and 4x AA missiles.

Such mix guarantee many shot downs of GheyTens :D

[RagnarDa]

Nice review! I usually fly armed to the teath with all the heavy missiles and Vikhrs but I also use the autopilot constantly. I've got AP-Route Follow, Attitude Hold (for nice turns), Level Flight (to auto-set the trim) and Disengage AP mapped on my HOTAS and it helps a lot. Just remember to leave your stick centered and wait for the AP to stabilize before disengaging the AP. Doing fast pop-ups in Su-25A/T with lots of rockets is also pretty bad-ass and fun.

 

Edit: Another tip is that I usually carry a S-8 TsM smoke marker rocket pod. I fire off a rocket against the targets so I can find them more easily when I go around for another run.

Edited November 13, 2012 by RagnarDa

[maturin]

Brtitchot: Your choice of the S-25Ls is curious to me. I find them so enormously useless, being little more than a heavy Vikhr. Unless you're going after buildings and bridges, I'd prefer S-13s or even OFP S-8s for more ammo.

[arteedecco]

Edit: Another tip is that I usually carry a S-8 TsM smoke marker rocket pod. I fire off a rocket against the targets so I can find them more easily when I go around for another run.

 

Yeah, good tip. It's tough to always remember to pay attention to the precise geography surrounding your target when you are screaming overhead at 500 kph, avoiding terrain, and/or dealing with threats.

 

Q1. Let's say you're ingressing to a target in a valley and are NOE... what mode / weapon system do you have active? Do you favor having your smoke rocket active so you can quickly pot-shot the target and then pull a u-turn and begin engaging?

-- I find that my valley NOE tactics are crap and I tend to have trouble with the heightened workload. Need some quick tips (a sort of checklist) to run through to help manage.

[GGTharos]

NOE flying is good if you have good intelligence, or when you are escaping ... if you don't know where your target is and you're not lining up to attack it before you see it, NOE flight will give you the results you mention.

[arteedecco]

Maybe this has already been covered, but

 

Q1. Are there plans, or WIP to update the DSC Su-25T to an official 6dof cockpit, clickable pit, and basically brining it up to the same speed as the DCS A-10C?

 

My assumption is "no" since it is offered for free with DCS World...

 

Q2. What is the best endurance speed (level flight, MGTOW) in the Su-25T? And, maybe more important... what is the optimal cruise speed / power setting (RPM) for best endurance, balanced against enough speed for maneuvering in the case of a pop-up threat (MANPAD, or AAA)?

[joey45]

Q1 - Not at this time but who knows.....

 

Q2 - Depends on the payload...

If clean then it goes like a bat out of hell..

If fully loaded then it turns like a tanker...

 

Have a go and fly around with various payloads..

Edited November 14, 2012 by joey45

[Dr_Arrow]

I too have fallen in love with the T-Toad after initially learning the A-10C. My favorite loadout (from memory) is:

 

2x ECM pods on the wings to increase the survivability. Only activate when painted, though.

2x R73s

2x S25L (I believe, it's the one that leaves behind the cylinder when you fire it)

16x 9A4172 Vikhrs

2x Kh-29T for fire and forget targets at maximum range

1x Mercury pod

-Good for all weather. I generally leave the Mercury pod at home during daytime flights.

 

I stand off behind friendly lines and use the Shkval to locate targets to the best of my ability. When I locate a few I'll make a pass with a Kh-29T following with a S25L or two Vikhrs as I get closer then break off and reset to repeat. I try to use the S25Ls early in order to jettison the canisters and reduce their drag. After that then the Vikhrs should be the only A2G ordnance on my aircraft. If I find myself in a dogfight then I can jettison those if I deem necessary. The Su-25T drops the A2G pylons first from outside-in, then the A2A.

 

For SEAD I replace the Murcury pod with the Phantasmigoria (sp) pod as well as the 2x Kh-25MPU and 2x Kh-58U. This leaves me with the Vikhrs to clean up some of the armor. It's hard for me to turn down the 16 missiles instead of 2. If i'm going up for nothing but SEAD then I would leave the bulky pods but normally I'm flying offline missions and maximize my "fun."

 

Such loadouts are out of question for real-world use. Under normal conditions you would use only a 16x9A4172 with optionally two droptanks, ECM. With other guided munitions a real combat load would comprise only 2xKH-29T/L, ECM, or 4xS-25L with ECM. You wouldn't carry IRL VIKHRs on SEAD missions.

[Boberro]

ED could add possibility to load few Vikhrs instead of 16.... Example 2/4/8 missiles for some missions would be nicer than 16:

 

[joey45]

^^ yes please.

[marcos]

Using a heavy weapon can make it fly like a turd if you only use 1 of them. E.g. a Kh-29 or FAB-500. If you have 2 and only use 1, the aircraft does not fly so good thereafter.

[Britchot]

Brtitchot: Your choice of the S-25Ls is curious to me. I find them so enormously useless, being little more than a heavy Vikhr. Unless you're going after buildings and bridges, I'd prefer S-13s or even OFP S-8s for more ammo.

 

I think I equipped it one day and had good success; I do like your suggestion so I believe I'll change my loadout. Perhaps I'll use RagnarDa's suggestion with the smoke marker pod on one wing:

 

Another tip is that I usually carry a S-8 TsM smoke marker rocket pod. I fire off a rocket against the targets so I can find them more easily when I go around for another run.

 

@Dr_Arrow:

Such loadouts are out of question for real-world use. Under normal conditions you would use only a 16x9A4172 with optionally two droptanks, ECM. With other guided munitions a real combat load would comprise only 2xKH-29T/L, ECM, or 4xS-25L with ECM. You wouldn't carry IRL VIKHRs on SEAD missions.

 

I understand my loadouts of 103% max ramp weight are unrealistic. You should see what I load the A-10C down with. When I fly the sim offline in a single mission (the majority of my flights), I see it more like a rifle range where I am maximizing my number of shots in different environments versus a realistic approach at a mission. When I fly in a campaign or Co-Op/Online, I carry whatever is necessary for mission accomplishment with a higher regard for survival.