TGP Point Mode

[Deflagrate]

I just got around to installing DCS: World and A-10C 1.2.0. In 1.1.1 I was able to move the TGP over a target, TMS up to change to point, and it would track my target even if it was moving. Now when I press TMS up it changes to point, but it does not track a moving target. I was trying to target an SA-19 moving across open flat ground, and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

[Evil.Bonsai]

Make sure the tgp isn't 'masked'. Is there an 'M" flashing on the tgp image? If so, the tgp is masked and won't track

[Deflagrate]

Nothing for it to be masked behind. I locked on to it using a Maverick seeker and took it out without any problems.

 

A second Tunguska however took me out after I had already launched an Maverick at it and had turned away. Not a single warning a missile was even launched.

 

First experience with DCS World has been less than enjoyable.

[Corrigan]

Tracking works fine. When in point mode, it will track anything inside the small box at the centre of the cross hairs. If you can't get it to work, just slew it off and back on to the target and it should stick.

[Deflagrate]

Tracking works fine. When in point mode, it will track anything inside the small box at the centre of the cross hairs. If you can't get it to work, just slew it off and back on to the target and it should stick.

I tried another fast mission and it worked fine this time. I tried slewing it back and forth earlier and that didn't work either. I must of run in to a rare bug or two the first time I played.

[Evil.Bonsai]

Nothing for it to be masked behind. I locked on to it using a Maverick seeker and took it out without any problems.

 

A second Tunguska however took me out after I had already launched an Maverick at it and had turned away. Not a single warning a missile was even launched.

 

First experience with DCS World has been less than enjoyable.

 

Masking is not referring to the target. The TGP has a built in 'mask' of the aircraft, so that when the tgp is 'masked' it will prevent firing of the laser. Even if you can see something with the tgp, it can still be 'masked' There is an indicator on the TGP image bottom center. If there is an 'm' then it is masked. Since the TGP doesn't know what stores you're carrying, the 'mask' will take into account EVERY thing you could be carrying, even if plane is completely free of any stores.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=86738&highlight=tgp+masking

[Deflagrate]

Masking is not referring to the target. The TGP has a built in 'mask' of the aircraft, so that when the tgp is 'masked' it will prevent firing of the laser. Even if you can see something with the tgp, it can still be 'masked' There is an indicator on the TGP image bottom center. If there is an 'm' then it is masked. Since the TGP doesn't know what stores you're carrying, the 'mask' will take into account EVERY thing you could be carrying, even if plane is completely free of any stores.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=86738&highlight=tgp+masking

Flying relatively straight towards the target, there shouldn't be anything to mask it though. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall ever seeing it being masked on the MFD/HUD. I did see it occasionally when I was playing the second fast mission however, but that was never when I was directly approaching the target.

[Evil.Bonsai]

If there is no "M" on the screen indicating masking, then you might try changing modes (optical and w/bhot modes). Sometimes one of the other modes will work a little better.

[JB3DG]

try zooming in. Sometimes you just need to zoom in a little in order to get it to track.

[Corrigan]

I tried another fast mission and it worked fine this time. I tried slewing it back and forth earlier and that didn't work either. I must of run in to a rare bug or two the first time I played.

 

I wouldn't call it a bug. I don't think it's designed to work every time, under every condition, just like I imagine it doesn't in the real aircraft.

[Tailgate]

I've noted the same thing, I think TGP has been tweaked to be more realistic in 1.2 and a little less reliable.

[SharpeXB]

I have noticed if you are at a high slant angle or range to the target it won't lock. Or I could be doing something else wrong, anyways getting a bit closer or at a higher angle seems to work

[Deflagrate]

If there is no "M" on the screen indicating masking, then you might try changing modes (optical and w/bhot modes). Sometimes one of the other modes will work a little better.

I'll try that if I ever run in to it again.

try zooming in. Sometimes you just need to zoom in a little in order to get it to track.

I zoomed in both with china hat forward and DMS up.

I wouldn't call it a bug. I don't think it's designed to work every time, under every condition, just like I imagine it doesn't in the real aircraft.

If that's the case it seems it a little ridiculous it wouldn't work in perfectly clear conditions. It was daytime, no obstructions on the ground, no clouds between myself and the target, flying towards the target.

[jazjar]

Disable random system failures.

[Corrigan]

^ Not the cause.

[Nialfb]

I have a training mission I created with a convey of moving vehicles. When I use the Point Mode in the TGP to target the front vehicle, sometimes it will 'latch' onto a vehicle and follow it, i.e. the small square will latch onto a part of the vehicle, and sometimes the entire vehicle is selected inside a larger square. What is the difference and why do I get the difference. If the square is latched onto a part of the vehicle is the vehicle locked in the same way it would presumably be if the entire vehicle is in the box?

I found that if only a part of the vehicle is latched, when I use CH FWD LONG to slew the Maverick and then use TMS UP SHORT, the maverick loses the lock.

Any ideas?

Thanks

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Nialfb said:

I have a training mission I created with a convey of moving vehicles. When I use the Point Mode in the TGP to target the front vehicle, sometimes it will 'latch' onto a vehicle and follow it, i.e. the small square will latch onto a part of the vehicle, and sometimes the entire vehicle is selected inside a larger square. What is the difference and why do I get the difference. If the square is latched onto a part of the vehicle is the vehicle locked in the same way it would presumably be if the entire vehicle is in the box?

I found that if only a part of the vehicle is latched, when I use CH FWD LONG to slew the Maverick and then use TMS UP SHORT, the maverick loses the lock.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Don't know why the box is different sizes, I think it's supposed to indicate the size of the object it thinks it's tracking, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  AFAIK, the tracking modes don't really simulate any video analysis, they're just simulated by having LOS and being close enough.

That being said, I think the MAV page may simulate some contrast analysis, so there may be times where the TGP can track, but the MAV can't.

[Nialfb]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Don't know why the box is different sizes, I think it's supposed to indicate the size of the object it thinks it's tracking, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  AFAIK, the tracking modes don't really simulate any video analysis, they're just simulated by having LOS and being close enough.

That being said, I think the MAV page may simulate some contrast analysis, so there may be times where the TGP can track, but the MAV can't.

Thanks for your reply aylw314, the size of the box doesn't seem to bear any relevance to the size of the object. If I hover over an object with the 'small' point mode indicator it will track a moving vehicle for instance so it must see something. If I slowly move the cursor over the vehicle there will be a point where the point mode indicator will snap to encompass the entire vehicle. Does anyone have any experience of this? When I'm creating Mark Points I have an idea that the vehicles marked using the full Point Mode icon is more reliable than when using the small point mode icon but maybe I'm just crap at GBUs anyway

[jaylw314]

28 minutes ago, Nialfb said:

Thanks for your reply aylw314, the size of the box doesn't seem to bear any relevance to the size of the object. If I hover over an object with the 'small' point mode indicator it will track a moving vehicle for instance so it must see something. If I slowly move the cursor over the vehicle there will be a point where the point mode indicator will snap to encompass the entire vehicle. Does anyone have any experience of this? When I'm creating Mark Points I have an idea that the vehicles marked using the full Point Mode icon is more reliable than when using the small point mode icon but maybe I'm just crap at GBUs anyway

That's what I meant, it's supposed to but doesn't have anything to do with the object size.

I'd point out it makes little sense to make accurate markpoints in POINT mode for moving vehicles  

[ASAP]

17 hours ago, Nialfb said:

Thanks for your reply aylw314, the size of the box doesn't seem to bear any relevance to the size of the object. If I hover over an object with the 'small' point mode indicator it will track a moving vehicle for instance so it must see something. If I slowly move the cursor over the vehicle there will be a point where the point mode indicator will snap to encompass the entire vehicle. Does anyone have any experience of this? When I'm creating Mark Points I have an idea that the vehicles marked using the full Point Mode icon is more reliable than when using the small point mode icon but maybe I'm just crap at GBUs anyway

For weapons employment its pretty much meaningless. It just indicates what point of contrast the TGP is tracking. If there is a small high contrast feature on the vehicle the TGP may lock onto that. If the vehicle has a lot of contrast to the background its moving along it might lock onto that instead. As long as the TGP is looking at the vehicle you want, either a small chunk or the vehicle itself, makes no practical difference to you. The center of the crosshairs is still where the laser is designating, and when you take a mark its still going to be at the center of the crosshairs as well. The mark is no more or less accurate based on the size of that container.

Edited July 9, 2023 by ASAP

[Nialfb]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm new to the A-10C, I mostly fly the Ka-50 II and the other Russian fixed wing aircraft.

My convey has two Shilka's defending it, one in the front and one bringing up the rear. I am using Mavericks to take out the Shilka's at which point the convoy heads for the off road and comes to a stop. I can use the Maverick direct but my old eyes have a job seeing something so small as a Shilka in a stand off scenario. My thinking was to track the first Shilka using Point mode and set is as SPI, I then slave the Maverick to SPI using CH FWD LONG and BLAMO! Well, not quite because the Maverick doesn't seem to stay on the Shilka.

If anyone has any other ideas of how to kill a moving target reliably I would be glad to hear from you.

Thanks

[Yurgon]

14 minutes ago, Nialfb said:

If anyone has any other ideas of how to kill a moving target reliably I would be glad to hear from you.

Mavericks aren't necessarily the most precise weapons. They were designed to be launched at visually identified targets, and I believe effective engagement ranges were in the 3 to 4 nautical mile range back in the days of the A-10A.

Picking an individual target with the TGP from 8, 9, 10 miles out and slaving the Mav to it is pretty obvious in DCS, but not how Mavericks were originally designed to be used.

On top of that, Mavericks in DCS hate lamp poles and electric power cable poles, like they really, really want to kill these things whenever they see them.

Long story short, you'll have to double and triple check that your Mavs are tracking the correct target, and/or accept that they might kill one of those pesky wooden poles or another vehicle in the convoy you were aiming at.

For higher precision, you can use the laser guided AGM-65L variant; it's got a heavy warhead and the A-10 can only carry one on station 3 and 9 each, unlike the lighter D and H variants that can be loaded up to three (but that is a loadout that hasn't been used in recent years, given the low intensity conflicts A-10s have been used in after Desert Storm and Allied Force).

For Shilkas, you might even be able to kill them with APKWS; the effective range is around 5 miles, and when you're good at maneuvering your jet without masking the TGP, you should be able to stay well outside of the Shilka's engagement range. Or plink them with GBU-12s from 18,000 ft and above where they simply can't reach you.

[jaylw314]

Since the MAV page can't zoom in enough to see anywhere near the detail of the TGP, you can't actually ensure the Maverick seeker is locking up the correct dot.  The only way to convince myself sometimes is to slave the MAV to the TGP, then switch to the MAV page and press TMS up short.  if the image jumps at all, even a couple pixels, it's probably locked on the wrong object, so China hat forward long to reslave and try again ad nauseum

[Nialfb]

I have noticed that the Maverick isn't the sure fire, fire and forget that I thought it was. Sure, if I am in close and personal I can select targets straight from the Maverick seeker and I am pretty confident it is going to do the dirty deed. The only reason I was trying to kill the Shilka from a stand off position is so it can't kill me first. I don't know what the range of the Shilka is but I would imagine I could get quite close, certainly close enough for a definite kill with a maverick, before it kills me.

I have added a JTAC to my training mission so I think I'll get him to las the Shilka and I'll just dump a GBU-12 on it from a great height LOL Can a JTAC las a moving target? Just a thought.

I like Yurgo's idea of using the APKWS.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Nialfb

[ricktoberfest]

On 7/9/2023 at 3:14 PM, Nialfb said:

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm new to the A-10C, I mostly fly the Ka-50 II and the other Russian fixed wing aircraft.

My convey has two Shilka's defending it, one in the front and one bringing up the rear. I am using Mavericks to take out the Shilka's at which point the convoy heads for the off road and comes to a stop. I can use the Maverick direct but my old eyes have a job seeing something so small as a Shilka in a stand off scenario. My thinking was to track the first Shilka using Point mode and set is as SPI, I then slave the Maverick to SPI using CH FWD LONG and BLAMO! Well, not quite because the Maverick doesn't seem to stay on the Shilka.

If anyone has any other ideas of how to kill a moving target reliably I would be glad to hear from you.

Thanks

When you make a point track a SPI, it’s the spot on the ground that your sensors will slew to, not the target- especially if it’s moving.