Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[S3NTRY11]

I have been doing some more beta testing for the flyinside product for fsx. I just jumped back in to DCS to try it with the rift after not trying it for many months.

...

I was curious what about the vive yout thought would make it better for a cockpit?

 

I've recently had a bit of a go with P3D and FlyInside.. I thought it was pretty good too. Like you, I hope ED have met or exceeded that level of quality.

 

Regarding Vive and cockpit, because of the fundamental difference in the way Oculus and HTC do their tracking, the Vive is inherently more extensible, to the point that you should be able to plonk-on some sensors to everyday items, match them up to VR-space models and away you go - that item is now tracked in VR. Perhaps even having entire 3D printed cockpit facsimiles created?

I don't think it will be impossible to do similar with the Rift tracking system, but I think it would harder, and occlusion/frustum/tracking seems like a much bigger issue (actually the facsimile cockpit probably is almost impossible with Rift tracking, but everyday items are likely doable).

There's a great interview by Norm from Tested with the guy that created the lighthouse system discussing its scalability and extensibility:

 

 

@gtrdrt I feel the same about 0.7.

As for my next card: TBA at this stage. I might well swallow my words and stick with AMD if their DX12 performance is all it's cracked up to be.

[unclejacko]

A couple friend of mine with the Oculus Rift started up a Facebook page for Virtual Reality pilots. The site is for DCS, FSX, and any other flight sim that can use the Oculus Rift or other virtual reality system.

 

Were trying to get people to share their experiences....hope you guys can contribute.

 

https://www.facebook.com/VRAviators

[metalnwood]

Good point Sentry, I didnt see any practical advantage of their positional system when sitting in a cockpit but it could be better for the peripherals.

[Chivas]

According to Palmer the reason Oculus went with the camera tracking system over other like Vive's system is that the Rift camera system could track "everything" including body and facial expressions.

[S3NTRY11]

According to Palmer the reason Oculus went with the camera tracking system over other like Vive's system is that the Rift camera system could track "everything" including body and facial expressions.

To be honest, that is exactly what I would expect Palmer to say. I've seen enough interviews with Luckey to know that he is both smart, and good at towing the company line - not mutually exclusive attributes, I know.

 

As yet, we have seen nothing from Oculus that demonstrates the body/facial tracking capability, and their recent peripheral prototypes have come with no demonstration of the capability either. I'm not saying that it's not true, nor that they have nothing in the works along that line, but the problems with that tech are the problems with the Kinect. And the prototypes shown have all used point tracking. Not to mention the high load involved in all image-processing mechanisms; Load leads to lag.

 

This is why I love the Vive tracking implementation - it's low load and infinitely more extensible - out of the box.

Yes, I get that I am sounding like a bit of fanboy, but I was all for Oculus before seeing what HTC/Valve rolled out, because it was the best.

 

Was.

[BigBANGtheory]

Probably a silly question but... How is the DCS interactive cockpit going to work in VR? You'll need some hand gesture support surely.

[S3NTRY11]

Probably a silly question but... How is the DCS interactive cockpit going to work in VR? You'll need some hand gesture support surely.

It's a really great question that I think you also partially answered. My personal thoughts are that in the medium-term, if the peripheral options are there, hand gestures / hand tracking will be the way it's done. In the short-term, and as a baseline, the way that mouse interaction is implemented by FlyInside will be the way to go, but DCS 1.5 will answer that short-term question, I think.

 

Long-term, it would be great to have a modular, open standard for complete 3D-printed cockpits, either wired-up, or in combination with hand tracking, but that's a bit trickier.

[GurbY]

Anyone having the rift playing on DCS in Windows 10..?? I upgraded to W10 and had to reinstall the SDK and runtime (0.7) otherwise the rift wouldn't play in W10. But now when I try to run DCS it sames something like "linked to older runtime version" and it won't play in the DK2...

[wormeaten]

It's a really great question that I think you also partially answered. My personal thoughts are that in the medium-term, if the peripheral options are there, hand gestures / hand tracking will be the way it's done. In the short-term, and as a baseline, the way that mouse interaction is implemented by FlyInside will be the way to go, but DCS 1.5 will answer that short-term question, I think.

 

Long-term, it would be great to have a modular, open standard for complete 3D-printed cockpits, either wired-up, or in combination with hand tracking, but that's a bit trickier.

 

I start discussion on this forum about Leapmotion. I know it is not precise, when it recognize hand it loosing fingers and similar but do we need such precision in DCS? Look like it is good for precision to locate complete hand and its movement and realy what do we need only point finger for use.

 

I don't care about to see my hand in game how moving fingers. In my opinion mouse pointer who already exist in game is good solution need only 3 more actions for left and right buttons and scroll. This could be programmed outside of DCS using in game mouse protocols.

[Chivas]

To be honest, that is exactly what I would expect Palmer to say. I've seen enough interviews with Luckey to know that he is both smart, and good at towing the company line - not mutually exclusive attributes, I know.

 

As yet, we have seen nothing from Oculus that demonstrates the body/facial tracking capability, and their recent peripheral prototypes have come with no demonstration of the capability either. I'm not saying that it's not true, nor that they have nothing in the works along that line, but the problems with that tech are the problems with the Kinect. And the prototypes shown have all used point tracking. Not to mention the high load involved in all image-processing mechanisms; Load leads to lag.

 

This is why I love the Vive tracking implementation - it's low load and infinitely more extensible - out of the box.

Yes, I get that I am sounding like a bit of fanboy, but I was all for Oculus before seeing what HTC/Valve rolled out, because it was the best.

 

Was.

 

I have seen no reason "so far" not to believe why Oculus, Luckey, prefer their camera tracking setup. They have almost unlimited funds, to test all possible solutions.

I don't currently see the Vive unit as being better. Reviewers seemed to prefer the Vive unit when it came out, not because the headset was better, but because of the Vive wands, and ability to move around in a larger area than what Oculus was demonstrating. Reviewers saw little difference between the headset specs, and latency of the tracking solutions. Not to mention that many reviewers were comparing the Vive to an old Oculus DK2 prototype without inputs.

 

The Oculus prototype tracking solution can track in an area just as big as the Vive unit, but Oculus has seen no reason to demonstrate that movement as there were few if any software developers writing software to take advantage of that movement. Not to mention that the Oculus touch inputs appear to allow more dexterity, and more versatility than the Vive wands. That said things can easily change before the consumer release. We won't know all the facts until these units become available for preorder.

 

I haven't made a decision yet on which unit is better, but I'm leaning toward the Rift. I'll wait for more info before making a final decision. That said currently the headset specs appear very close, but I prefer the current Oculus input solution. Oculus should have a lead in content, since they've been funding, and developing more content for a couple of years longer than Vive. Vive will probably need a killer app to win that category. Price point could be the Vive killer if Oculus still plans to sell their hardware at cost. If that's the case, even if Vive releases their hardware a few months sooner, people will preorder the Rift unless the Vive is selling a better spec package.

 

So far Vive is suggesting that there will be only a few Vive units sold this year, with the bulk being available next year. Also HTC appears to be on a downswing, but no word if it will effect the Vive release dates, but it appears to have affected the amount of Vive units that might be available this year.

 

A major factor in my decision will be how well DCS is able to implement Vive and Rift support.

 

There are still far too many unanswered questions.

[vicx]

I personally think that Valve's Lighthouse tech is really exciting. I'm a fan of VR (I have a DK2) but the potential applications for Lighthouse go far beyond VR and for me that makes Lighthouse a bigger deal than the HMD it comes with.

 

Lighthouse makes robotic navigation in the home almost solved. It's a cheap system to build, gives you a tonne of performance, and it does this without a lot of effort required. Cheap, powerful and easy - it's the exact combination you want in a technology.

 

Someone shared a comment Alan Yates made on what you could do using the lighthouse system with just one optical detector. You don't get an attitude but you still get sub-mm position with just the sweep timing from two lighthouse stations. That is just cool. And then if you stick two or more on a known geometry then you get the full track. And the more you add after that ... the more you avoid occlusion issues. It is just so simple.

 

I really hope they end up selling thumbnail size, flexible printed circuits with tiny batteries that you stick on anything you want to track, it would bust things wide open.

 

---

 

Occulus HMD vs the Vive HMD? I'm gonna say that being an early adopter is probably gonna hurt. I really think the second gen products will come out sooner than anyone predicts. When will Samsung announce it's premium VR product with 4x Moar pixels per eye than anyone else.

[cichlidfan]

When will Samsung announce it's premium VR product with 4x Moar pixels per eye than anyone else.

 

After the non-compete clause, in their contract with Oculus/FB, expires. :P

[S3NTRY11]

I start discussion on this forum about Leapmotion. I know it is not precise, when it recognize hand it loosing fingers and similar but do we need such precision in DCS? Look like it is good for precision to locate complete hand and its movement and realy what do we need only point finger for use.

 

I don't care about to see my hand in game how moving fingers. In my opinion mouse pointer who already exist in game is good solution need only 3 more actions for left and right buttons and scroll. This could be programmed outside of DCS using in game mouse protocols.

I have a leapmotion, and unless they drastically improve tracking, use in something like DCS would be a frustrating nightmare. Particularly where cockpit controls don't have great clearance.

 

Now something like Control VR, on the other hand, with IMUs, etc... oh hell yes!

[S3NTRY11]

Anyone having the rift playing on DCS in Windows 10..?? I upgraded to W10 and had to reinstall the SDK and runtime (0.7) otherwise the rift wouldn't play in W10. But now when I try to run DCS it sames something like "linked to older runtime version" and it won't play in the DK2...

I'm not running DCS with DK2 as yet, but I have a feeling it may actually be your video drivers causing the problem. Make sure you have the latest VR-ready drivers, downgrade to an earlier runtime (not sure what runtime DCS uses, but it will need to be compatible - it's the reason you are getting the "older runtime version" message).

 

I run Win10 and the 0.5.1.0 runtime no problem with other titles, but did have the same error until I got the specific set of AMD drivers that supported the Rift.

 

Hope that helps!

 

With 1.5 not too far away, you hopefully don't have long to wait until a lot of issues with the Rift and DCS should be resolved. Bit of a lottery as to which SDK they're using though! Fingers crossed for 0.7.

[S3NTRY11]

I have seen no reason "so far" not to believe why Oculus, Luckey, prefer their camera tracking setup. They have almost unlimited funds, to test all possible solutions.

 

Their tracking system works fine as it is, but can it be easily extended by 3rd parties and modders? Can it handle many more arbitrary devices? They have to deal with modulation and image processing to extend their system, where Lighthouse appears to be much more 'plug and play'.

 

The 'bottomless pit of money' rationale doesn't really work for me.

Hypothetically, what if Oculus simply don't want to licence Valve's proprietary tech, or that it would drive the end-user cost too high, hurting uptake, and they feel that what they have at the moment is fine for the first commercial version of something that is going to go through many evolutionary stages?

 

I don't currently see the Vive unit as being better. Reviewers seemed to prefer the Vive unit when it came out, not because the headset was better, but because of the Vive wands, and ability to move around in a larger area than what Oculus was demonstrating. Reviewers saw little difference between the headset specs, and latency of the tracking solutions. Not to mention that many reviewers were comparing the Vive to an old Oculus DK2 prototype without inputs.

 

If they're comparing the Vive to the DK2, then, at this stage, that's pretty apples-to-oranges, so yeah, the Vive will sound amazing by comparison, but I've seen and read many comparisons between the Vive and the latest Rift prototype where people are saying that the Vive is fundamentally better. Taken that for what it's worth though, I guess.

 

Not to mention that the Oculus touch inputs appear to allow more dexterity, and more versatility than the Vive wands.

 

The Touch controls do look pretty good, no doubt!

 

A major factor in my decision will be how well DCS is able to implement Vive and Rift support.

 

Absolutely!

[S3NTRY11]

Occulus HMD vs the Vive HMD? I'm gonna say that being an early adopter is probably gonna hurt. I really think the second gen products will come out sooner than anyone predicts. When will Samsung announce it's premium VR product with 4x Moar pixels per eye than anyone else.

 

After the non-compete clause, in their contract with Oculus/FB, expires.

 

Not to mention the fact that all those juicy VR-centric GPU improvements are going to have to come along thick and fast to comfortably drive those resolutions!

Fun times ahead.

 

I agree with the point about early adopters being hurt, but damn if I'm not bracing for the pain :-D

[vicx]

Yeah I'm trying to sound solid on my plan to wait for Samsungs first VR flagship HMD and an Nvidia Pascal card to power it, BUT we'll see what happens as the hype train for the first gen really gets going.

[wormeaten]

 

 

According to this experience and from DCS perspective looks like Oculus is better solution. Vive plays on better immersion but it is more for Skyrim players not DCS. This laser movement tech is not precise in same way as leapmotion.

 

For DCS we need high precision for operating with all this small buttons and switches placed next to itch other.

 

Major pro from DCS perspective is resolution and here Oculus is leading with 1280x720 per eye against 960x540 like Vive have. What that means? you need 1440p screen resolution to play 720p because pictures is merging in one so real game resolution is resolution for one eye.

 

Did someone try using his cellular with 2560x1440 px screen, for example LG G3 D855 model, with google cardboard style VR + trinus VR or VR stream?

[vicx]

According to this experience and from DCS perspective looks like Oculus is better solution. Vive plays on better immersion but it is more for Skyrim players not DCS. This laser movement tech is not precise in same way as leapmotion.

 

For DCS we need high precision for operating with all this small buttons and switches placed next to itch other.

 

Major pro from DCS perspective is resolution and here Oculus is leading with 1280x720 per eye against 960x540 like Vive have. What that means? you need 1440p screen resolution to play 720p because pictures is merging in one so real game resolution is resolution for one eye.

 

Oculus Rift CV1 i HTC Vive : 1080x1200 po oku

[S3NTRY11]

According to this experience and from DCS perspective looks like Oculus is better solution.

...

 

Major pro from DCS perspective is resolution and here Oculus is leading with 1280x720 per eye against 960x540 like Vive have. What that means? you need 1440p screen resolution to play 720p because pictures is merging in one so real game resolution is resolution for one eye.

You have many misunderstandings and inaccuracies in your post.

 

Leapmotion is considerably less accurate/reliable than Vive. Or the Rift for that matter.

 

Not sure where you got those resolution specs, but they are way off too.

Edited September 9, 2015 by S3NTRY11
Trimmed quoted text

[OnlyforDCS]

A question for those in the know-how:

 

I was recently diagnosed with astigmatism. It's not a biggie, as it's easily corrected with a pair of glasses, however will this allow me to use the CV version of the Rift or Vive at all? Are these devices compatible with glasses or are glasses unnecessary since the screen is so close (physically) to the eyes?

[S3NTRY11]

A question for those in the know-how:

 

I was recently diagnosed with astigmatism. It's not a biggie, as it's easily corrected with a pair of glasses, however will this allow me to use the CV version of the Rift or Vive at all? Are these devices compatible with glasses or are glasses unnecessary since the screen is so close (physically) to the eyes?

The Rift and Vive both aim to support glasses within the headset, so you should be all good!

[OnlyforDCS]

Thanks!

[wormeaten]

Oculus Rift CV1 i HTC Vive : 1080x1200 po oku

 

Yes, sorry you are correct for "per eye" (po oku, :thumbup:) but I think only for CV1.

 

On the video guy from Valve say Vive have 1080p screen what is exactly like DK2. User confirm that.

 

I don't believe to much in promo. Only aspect of all of this individual users who can objectively send us impressions focused on what we need most from DCS players perspective.

 

Right now Vive have better immersion and I don't take it for granted in two major reasons.

 

1. we didn't see any example how really precise Vive motion tracking is in fact. All this examples are on Leapmotion examples where it looks OK but in fact for us DCS players in this moment it is useless.
   
2. Controlers are useless in DCS in that way how Vive one same as new Oculus ass well which is not presented at all in this video.
   

Only thing what this video confirming is better resolution for CV1. I'm not cheering for one or another in fact I don't own any of it and didn't try one but I'm really interested in such gadget but for DCS and similar titles only and trying to judge filtering as much facts and information as possible. I could not afford that much money for disappointment.

 

 

My intention is to ask and share my opinions especially with real users of such product to get answers on it and get most as possible correct information and clarifies some of my wrong conclusions, information's or facts.

 

 

 

Like I did it with Leapmotion which on promo was looking good but our friends who use it said it is not ready yet for our purpose.

 

 

Thanks for understanding guys and keep good discussion here. :thumbup:

 

 

:pilotfly:

[metalnwood]

A question for those in the know-how:

 

I was recently diagnosed with astigmatism. It's not a biggie, as it's easily corrected with a pair of glasses, however will this allow me to use the CV version of the Rift or Vive at all? Are these devices compatible with glasses or are glasses unnecessary since the screen is so close (physically) to the eyes?

 

I wear glasses and it's mostly for the astigmatism. I dont bother wearing them in the rfit.

 

If you only just found out and are wearing glasses now then you wont get any worse view than you had before. I find it much better than wearing glasses in the rift and didnt notice any real difference while wearing contacts.

 

Maybe when the res is much better than now or CV1 it will make more of a difference depending on your prescription.