Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[LuSi_6]

that is not enterly true. You "feel" sounds, meaning the body, not only the ears can add information to the brain. Also the hairs inside the ear behind the drum can get stimulated from sounds coming from the opposite side. The brain can locate the source of sound in a natural 3D enviroment without turning the head (not for all frequences!)

[Kuky]

Yes, you can feel sounds but low frequency only, provided it is powerful enough but erm.... hairs that transmit the signal from ear water/bones to the brain cells to be able to get signal from other ear that is not even connected to them? I don't think so. Really I think we discussed this enough (for me anyway) so I'll have to leave it now, lets say we agree to disagree, as we are hijacking the tread about OR VR.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Please do the experiment I did and let me know your findings, but make sure you do it properly.

 

You spent time doing that? You could have spent 30 seconds on google which would have given you multiple sources all saying the same thing; all of which would confirm what you're saying is nonsense by the way.

 

The information is out there. It's quite a display of wilful ignorance that you refuse to learn from it.

[Kuky]

You spent time doing that? You could have spent 30 seconds on google which would have given you multiple sources all saying the same thing; all of which would confirm what you're saying is nonsense by the way.

 

The information is out there. It's quite a display of wilful ignorance that you refuse to learn from it.

 

Ah well... here we go, but doesn't matter. I'd rather believe what I can see for myself, rather then what someone else claims. Do what you want.

[average_pilot]

You may read this document about sound localization and spatialization

https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/audiosdk/latest/concepts/book-audio-intro/

 

Frequency spectrum matters a lot when sensing the position of the sound

[pagadi-zaiet]

We need back the centring Num5 key assignment to HOTAS for the DK2. It has been now a while since that function has been disabled for no apparent reason. A word from devs on this issue much appreciated!

[MegOhm_SD]

I know this is old poll but Voted no not because of potential bankruptcy which probably should not be in the voice of no.

I voted will not get because I am old school and just not interested in wearing ski goggles to fly.

 

Plus I need SA in my man cave as I don't live alone

Edited January 10, 2016 by MegOhm_SD

[vicx]

Ahh you guys talk about sound. A thought experiment ... how would YOU go about modeling very realistic sound in DCS ... in VR!

 

I think you have to extend the present model to enable worthwhile VR sound.

 

The present model is good and being improved but AFAIK it is based on stereo separation of a single point sound which uses single point position, orientation, velocity, and acceleration relative to world sound sources to build a stereo matrix. This model has worked well but with VR HMD tracking it is now possible to do so much more with spatialised sound.

 

Now ... how to do it. *AND EARN BONUS POINTS for non-VR users.*

 

I would not take the existing model and just add VR orientation to it. I think a MORE logical model extension would generate a matrix based around the cockpit and then place the VR HMD inside that space. This is because for VR purposes it would be nice for the sound to attenuate more realistically to all the orientations a head can have inside the cockpit.

 

Example tilt head on side. Left ear facing the seat, right ear facing the canopy - you would expect to hear heavily attenuated sounds from the left ear (seat direction) and less attenuated and more heavily directional cues from the right ear (canopy side). In all honesty mostly wind noise and engine noises right? Also sounds would be attenuated based on frequency and impulse energy ... more attenuated higher frequencies through the seat ... basic stuff like that would suffice.

 

So ... logically we need a cockpit matrix for the VR head to use and we need a minimum amount of points to add some complexity beyond the existing L and R side of the cockpit. The number of points required depends on how complex you want the cockpit model to be BUT I think a cockpit has logical directions for sound to come from and that provide distinct characteristics. A common cubic model can be used.

 

- Front Cockpit

- Rear Cockpit

- Left Cockpit

- Right Cockpit

- Top Cockpit

- Bottom Cockpit

 

 

A very nuanced model could be built using an actual cockpit and recording frequency sweeps and impulse noises to build a cockpit specific matrix but I think a hand made model could be just as convincing. No need to add difficulty to a big task.

 

Now with FC,RC,LC,RC,TC,BC you have a six channel cockpit sound matrix to feed a stereo model representing the head. The head will have a position and orientation inside the cockpit matrix.

 

And now we finally reach the part you guys have been arguing about.

 

Q. Do you use a HRTF model based on the physiology of human skulls and mix the cockpit matrix using this model or do you use a hand made matrix which approximates the effects you would expect?

 

A. It does not matter that much because the more significant work is done elsewhere.

 

The HRTF model kind of has to be a head in helmet type HRTF model. Which is probably available in certain parts. Otherwise you can approximate the effects you would expect to hear through the helmet and skull and sounds you would expect from the front/back/top/bottom as heard by ears, in a head, in a helmet.

 

Personally I think that the HRTF vs Hand-made stereo model is a premature argument.

 

Other things are more important.

 

First we will need a cockpit sound matrix with extra dimensions so that that sound differences based on head orientation are accurate enough to care about AND rich enough that it is ACTUALLY worth feeding into another matrix (HRTF or otherwise).

 

The good thing about this approach is that ... a cockpit matrix would lend itself to be used by non-VR users with 5.1 sound systems and physical cockpits. This way we please VR people and non-Vr people at the same time. It could be LOTS of people happy.

 

These are just my own ideas. You will have your own.

Edited January 10, 2016 by vicx

[S3NTRY11]

Ahh you guys talk about sound. A thought experiment ... how would YOU go about modeling very realistic sound in DCS ... in VR!

 

I think you have to extend the present model to enable worthwhile VR sound.

 

The present model is good and being improved but AFAIK it is based on stereo separation of a single point sound which uses single point position, orientation, velocity, and acceleration relative to world sound sources to build a stereo matrix. This model has worked well but with VR HMD tracking it is now possible to do so much more with spatialised sound.

 

Now ... how to do it. *AND EARN BONUS POINTS for non-VR users.*

 

I would not take the existing model and just add VR orientation to it. I think a MORE logical model extension would generate a matrix based around the cockpit and then place the VR HMD inside that space. This is because for VR purposes it would be nice for the sound to attenuate more realistically to all the orientations a head can have inside the cockpit.

 

Example tilt head on side. Left ear facing the seat, right ear facing the canopy - you would expect to hear heavily attenuated sounds from the left ear (seat direction) and less attenuated and more heavily directional cues from the right ear (canopy side). In all honesty mostly wind noise and engine noises right? Also sounds would be attenuated based on frequency and impulse energy ... more attenuated higher frequencies through the seat ... basic stuff like that would suffice.

 

So ... logically we need a cockpit matrix for the VR head to use and we need a minimum amount of points to add some complexity beyond the existing L and R side of the cockpit. The number of points required depends on how complex you want the cockpit model to be BUT I think a cockpit has logical directions for sound to come from and that provide distinct characteristics. A common cubic model can be used.

 

- Front Cockpit

- Rear Cockpit

- Left Cockpit

- Right Cockpit

- Top Cockpit

- Bottom Cockpit

 

 

A very nuanced model could be built using an actual cockpit and recording frequency sweeps and impulse noises to build a cockpit specific matrix but I think a hand made model could be just as convincing. No need to add difficulty to a big task.

 

Now with FC,RC,LC,RC,TC,BC you have a six channel cockpit sound matrix to feed a stereo model representing the head. The head will have a position and orientation inside the cockpit matrix.

 

And now we finally reach the part you guys have been arguing about.

 

Q. Do you use a HRTF model based on the physiology of human skulls and mix the cockpit matrix using this model or do you use a hand made matrix which approximates the effects you would expect?

 

A. It does not matter that much because the more significant work is done elsewhere.

 

The HRTF model kind of has to be a head in helmet type HRTF model. Which is probably available in certain parts. Otherwise you can approximate the effects you would expect to hear through the helmet and skull and sounds you would expect from the front/back/top/bottom as heard by ears, in a head, in a helmet.

 

Personally I think that the HRTF vs Hand-made stereo model is a premature argument.

 

Other things are more important.

 

First we will need a cockpit sound matrix with extra dimensions so that that sound differences based on head orientation are accurate enough to care about AND rich enough that it is ACTUALLY worth feeding into another matrix (HRTF or otherwise).

 

The good thing about this approach is that ... a cockpit matrix would lend itself to be used by non-VR users with 5.1 sound systems and physical cockpits. This way we please VR people and non-Vr people at the same time. It could be LOTS of people happy.

 

These are just my own ideas. You will have your own.

Geez, at least put some effort into thinking about it. Sheesh.

 

;D

 

Great post! Wonder what the elusive devs would think.

[hansangb]

Works fine for me with DK2. Make sure you're numlock is on.

[dot]

Here is some info about binaural hearing in humans:

The benefits of binaural hearing are numerous. Not all sounds bend equally around the head.

Short wave lengths associated with high pitch sounds tend to be reflected before reaching the other side,

while long wavelengths associated with low pitch sounds may reach both ears more readily.

Having two ears is like a blind spot detector for hearing. When one ear is in “auditory shadow”, the other is in “auditory light”.

The brain also makes use of minute differences in signal strength, time of arrival and phase of soundwaves between the two ears to locate the direction of sounds.

These differences between the ears also help our brains to suppress background noise and focus our hearing on the things that matter most.

Individuals who lose hearing in one ear find that the auditory landscape becomes less three dimensional and have greater difficulty focusing in background noise or telling where sounds come.

 

https://www.amplexhearing.com.au/from-ear-to-brain/

 

(P.S. My wife is an audiologist :)

[kam]

Are you looking at a total % for all cores or 10-12% on a single core?make sure you view each core.

 

I've done a lot of experimenting this evening and can't recall which map I was on for those figures. I'll have to double check.

 

DCS does seem to prefer using my last CPU core, roughly the same as your 70-80%

 

I can't see the difference, for example...between having 4 cores at 20% or one core at 80%?

 

My 7950 is being used to its maximum, both in GPU load and memory usage, and it's a huge leap in performance compared to the old engine.

 

Back ontopic, I pre ordered a rift, can't wait :thumbup: Have to wait until May though.

[Frusheen]

Works fine for me with DK2. Make sure you're numlock is on.

 

It doesn't work via a joystick button. That's what the op is referring too. You can get around it by using joytokey or other key to joystick mapping software.

[Frusheen]

DCS does seem to prefer using my last CPU core, roughly the same as your 70-80%

 

I can't see the difference, for example...between having 4 cores at 20% or one core at 80%?

 

My 7950 is being used to its maximum, both in GPU load and memory usage, and it's a huge leap in performance compared to the old engine.

 

Back ontopic, I pre ordered a rift, can't wait :thumbup: Have to wait until May though.

 

I tested this again (1.5.2) and I am seeing my last core is being utilized heavily when observed in afterburner at about 80%. When I check with core temp the value is much lower ~20% on that same core. very confusing.

[DerekSpeare]

It doesn't work via a joystick button. That's what the op is referring too. You can get around it by using joytokey or other key to joystick mapping software.

 

I use SVMapper for precisely this function and it works well; just map Num+5 onto your stick/box button of choice and off you go.

[doveman]

You may read this document about sound localization and spatialization

https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/audiosdk/latest/concepts/book-audio-intro/

 

Frequency spectrum matters a lot when sensing the position of the sound

Or this one, which explains how the size of a person's head and external ear affects the frequency profile of sounds coming from above, behind or in front of them and how their brain will have learnt to decode this into directionality http://knowingneurons.com/2013/03/15/how-does-the-brain-locate-sound-sources/

 

So it may be that there is a fairly common head and external ear size such that a virtual surround algorithm will work for many people but for others that algorithm will produce results too far from what their brain has been tuned to for it to work for them and only an algorithm based on their specific head and external ear size will work.

 

Maybe that's something for Rift mk.2, a laser that scans your head and ears and creates an individual profile for each user

[dot]

I am betting a lot of us wont be able to compare the two, I certainly have never put one under my seat...

 

The buttkicker is more about trasnlating the sound in to feeling, it is much more direct and doest require the volume that a sub woofer does. Even on high volume a subwoofer wouldnt give you anywhere near the same feeling.

 

Tried Simshaker software? It works pretty well. What Buttkicker should have been but never was.

 

http://dreamsimteam.blogspot.ca/p/simshaker.html

 

Thanks, I'm just wondering whether I'd need both. I've heard somewhere that buttkicker mounted on a racing rig turns the whole rig to a low frequency speaker with slight delay, which might be annoying. Have you experienced something similar?

 

Installed the 980ti no noticeable difference in DCS some increase in P3D about 10% to 20%.

 

R/

Daniel

 

I'm only seeing about 40% load on my 980ti with DCS in the rift and cpu has one core at about 70-80%. Some serious optimization needed.

 

Hm, in that case I think the only thing that can be done on our end is to overclock the i5 (or i7, but not sure if the price difference is worth it for DCS ) as much as possible and wait for multithreaded rendering support.

 

Also, your one core should be close to 100% if not, we can probably expect a patch that will improve performance by at least 20% soon :)

[SkateZilla]

Looking at specs from sources I have.

 

the 2 Screens + MiPI board alone are 475 Retail.

 

Then you have to add the optics and tracking system.

 

$599 is prolly selling with minimal prophits.

 

MS likely gave them a bunch of XBO Controllers to bundle for free, same with the bundled games.

[metalnwood]

Thanks, I'm just wondering whether I'd need both. I've heard somewhere that buttkicker mounted on a racing rig turns the whole rig to a low frequency speaker with slight delay, which might be annoying. Have you experienced something similar?

 

 

 

I only use mine with some software called simvibe. I imagine it is similar to the other listed. Instead of 'playing' the sounds from the audio source the software tells the buttkickers how to behave.

 

For example, when landing, there wont be a landing sound that will activate them but the software will make them go to rock the rig like you were landing. There also wont be a rumbling sound going down the runway but eh software will make them give you a good feeling of running on the tarmac.

 

I use mine for racing and have one in each corner that simulates the forces acting on the suspension on each wheel in the car.

[j0nx]

Their CEO said last week that they aren't making any money on the rift. I assume that means they are breaking even perhaps but he didn't say they were losing money on them either. I think it is priced as competitively as they could make it until the technology catches on.

[Vivoune]

Is simvibe only for racing or can it be used for DCS and BMS flight sims?

 

Afaik the advantage of simvibe is that is translates telemetry data from sims into the buttkicker(s) in order to have the right vibrations at the right time regardless of what's happening sound wise. Only a few sims output such telemetry, namely Iracing. It'd be great if DCS would but, afaik, that's not the case.

 

Looking at specs from sources I have.

the 2 Screens + MiPI board alone are 475 Retail.

Then you have to add the optics and tracking system.

$599 is prolly selling with minimal prophits.

MS likely gave them a bunch of XBO Controllers to bundle for free, same with the bundled games.

 

Indeed that sound about right. I'm sure it's the best they could do too. But the hard truth is it's just not good enough for a lot of us. I hope screens will evolve quickly, Oculus Rift is now worryingly starting to only refer to long term plans in scales of 10+ years when asked about affordable market VR and wide adoption, taking smart phones as an exemple.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Vivoune

[SkateZilla]

Afaik the advantage of simvibe is that is translates telemetry data from sims into the buttkicker(s) in order to have the right vibrations at the right time regardless of what's happening sound wise. Only a few sims output such telemetry, namely Iracing. It'd be great if DCS would but, afaik, that's not the case.

 

 

 

Indeed that sound about right. I'm sure it's the best they could do too. But the hard truth is it's just not good enough for a lot of us. I hope screens will evolve quickly, Oculus Rift is now worryingly starting to only refer to long term plans in scales of 10+ years when asked about affordable market VR and wide adoption, taking smart phones as an exemple.

 

The pricey part is the MiPI boards.

 

So far no one manufactures Small DVI/HDMI screens for PCs.

 

They are using Cellphone screens and tech, hence the MiPI board.

 

A 1440P 60Hz LED MiPI screen is like 175, a 75Hz is about 200, and 90Hz is about 220.

 

The MiPI boards/chips to convert HDMI signal are stupid expensive, the higher the resolution and refresh rate, the more expensive.

[wasyl00]

Well people are complayning that the set is overpriced. I'm sure shortly after the release we'll see some detailed teardown with each complonent's value.

 

Palmer is claiming that there ia a lot of custom hardware inside the deal is a steal. Time will tell...

 

Overinflated shipping/taxes (Hello Australians) is another story.

[pgh2atl]

So does anyone know if the consumer version will have some way to 'peek' at the outside world without having to lift up the OR? It's great having a clickable cockpit but getting my hand back to the mouse off the HOTAS has me on the fence about picking this up. Anyone know or know from their DK2 experience?

[Frusheen]

So does anyone know if the consumer version will have some way to 'peek' at the outside world without having to lift up the OR? It's great having a clickable cockpit but getting my hand back to the mouse off the HOTAS has me on the fence about picking this up. Anyone know or know from their DK2 experience?

 

No ability to peek in the consumer version but the foam could probably be cut around the nose if absolutely needed.

 

I currently use a trackball instead of a mouse. I have it connected to my collective as my controls and seat are away from my PC. It's very easy to use in the rift with clickable cockpits. No fumbling to find it like you may have with a mouse.