Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[Flamin_Squirrel]

It doesn't have to be low res map, I've already explained that some parts of the Nevada map work fine in the Rift and these are parts that are not low res. Derek was also right about someone picking up on double sided polygons or something that caused frames to drop, so there is some tweaking there to be done.

 

Sure I get that, but that's the kind of optimisation that benefits all users. If it benefits all users then it's not VR specific, so I still don't get what you mean by a map for VR?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel
typo

[DerekSpeare]

http://www.roadtovr.com/dcs-world-flight-simulator-gets-improved-oculus-rift-support/

 

Matt Wagner's reply is claimed to be as follows:

Hi Raphael and thanks for the article. We feel that VR is an important aspect of DCS World moving forward, and it brings a new dimension to the simulation experience. I think you'll find the readability of the cockpits MUCH better in the CV. We are also working on improvements to the UI and how the user interacts with the cockpit in VR.I found this from the FlyInside FSX forums:

http://forum.flyinside-fsx.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1294

 

I am looking to dig up the link for the source, but the man posting all of this is very reputable.

 

I thin think article touched on some of the glaring issues with DCS in the VR space. The menus have some more to go and the comms options are impossible to use. A menu like Elite Dangerous is precisely what's needed - Live for Speed has an excellent one as well - and the text for the comms options needs to be in the acute visual zone, be larger and with a high contrasting color.

 

I know ED is on all of this - or am assuming they are. VR is the future :)

Edited February 8, 2016 by DerekSpeare

[joebloggs]

I still don't get what you mean by a map for VR?

 

A map that will run VR smoothly, so made with VR in mind. It's not really a map for VR if it judders like Nevada does in parts. Timewarp might help with that, but they already said timewarp has been implemented. Reducing things in a map like buildings would help you to increase frame rate giving you a better VR experience without reducing res. There's plenty of places that someone could build a map around that doesn't have large cities.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Ah I see what you mean now; I thought you meant reducing detail on existing (or planned) maps just for VR, which I think would be a step backwards.

 

I like many have ordered an OR and am I'm expecting it to be an awesome experience, but it's really the first gen headset so I know it won't be without compromise. I just hope there's not going to be an outrage when people realise it's not the perfect headset. Better models will come out later.

[badaboom]

Ah I see what you mean now; I thought you meant reducing detail on existing (or planned) maps just for VR, which I think would be a step backwards.

 

I like many have ordered an OR and am I'm expecting it to be an awesome experience, but it's really the first gen headset so I know it won't be without compromise. I just hope there's not going to be an outrage when people realise it's not the perfect headset. Better models will come out later.

Hello,I'm curious,Did you have or try The OR DK2?

Thanks

[Flamin_Squirrel]

No, just from what I've picked up reading reviews.

[_Acoustic_]

I think the reviews for DCS in VR will be all over the place due to the fact that users will be coming from different set ups.

 

For instance, up until recently with my new 980ti, I've always been fine with my 570HD and 35FPS. Now with the 980ti, I don't notice all that much of a difference between when I'm flying over Vegas with 40FPS with everything maxed out compared to when I get into the outskirts and I get maxed at 60FPS with my monitor refresh rate. Don't get me wrong, I do see a slight difference but that is only if I'm paying attention for it and watching the FPS ticker. If I'm not waiting for the change then I don't notice any difference until I get to about 26FPS or lower, then it starts to get to me. Point being is I've played flight sims within the FPS boundaries of 30-40 for basically 20 years and the last month since I installed the 980ti is the only time I've seen above those levels.

 

The resolution. Sure if you are coming from a 4k monitor it will be a shocker, but I've always played with a 1920x1080 60hz monitor, or my TV at the same res and refresh rate, so honestly I don't think I will see much of a difference. Any review of VR should come with the users prior set up. Some things that are a deal break for one user might not even be noticed by another based on their prior setup.

[DerekSpeare]

It's impossible to compare VR frame rates against non VR frame rates. If you drop below 75 FPS with VR you know it IMMEDIATELY.

 

The folks who have no experience with using VR owe it to themselves to really spend some time with the technology in order to enlighten and inform their perspective greatly.

[_Acoustic_]

Maybe you are right but I'll wait to find out myself. Everyone is different. I for one don't see any difference between 120 FPS and 60FPS and only slight differences between 60 and 35. Other people say anything below 120 is rubbish. Some people get sick the second they get on a boat, others don't.

 

I think VR is going to be different for everyone and their prior experiences are going to shape it.

[S3NTRY11]

Maybe you are right but I'll wait to find out myself. Everyone is different. I for one don't see any difference between 120 FPS and 60FPS and only slight differences between 60 and 35. Other people say anything below 120 is rubbish. Some people get sick the second they get on a boat, others don't.

 

I think VR is going to be different for everyone and their prior experiences are going to shape it.

In VR, you know it when the whole world stutters, which is a massive leniency with a monitor.

[_Acoustic_]

Yeah I can see what you guys are saying, I'm just curious about 75FPS having to be the mark for everyone. Honestly I may get sick at 200FPS just because I might react differently than some.

 

I agree with you guys about noticing when the entire world judders but will it get me sick at 90,75,60 FPS? I just think it will be a different line for us all.

 

The FPS comparison to non VR might not pan out but I think the resolution won't really get to me since I'm coming from something similar rather than something much better.

[DerekSpeare]

when frame rates go below VR refresh rates you get judder (old way with extended) or ghosting (in direct to rift, the standard convention now). Again, frame rates in non VR are irrelevant and mean nothing. The closest comparison is to a three screen system, and anything less than 75 fps there is below acceptable levels for VR.

 

It's not 75 fps you want, it's 75 * 3 or ~225 FPS. You're generating a stereoscopic image which is basically "3 layers" or three images in one (as I understand it). It's much more complex than that, but suffice it to say that if you have a system incapable of producing stellar frames now without VR, you'll be disappointed should you get an Oculus CV1 - that one will be even more demanding.

 

Screen resolution is irrelevant for comparisons as well. You get one resolution with VR, the resolution of the HMD's screen.

 

Many of us have been using this regularly for more than a year, the collective knowledge just here on this forum is likely encyclopedic. I've told newbs this many times that when you first get a VR device and begin using it, you will need some time to adjust to it. Once that passes, you'll not even think about it.

 

VR induced disorientation is most commonly caused by low frame rates and inadequate hardware capabilities. Don't expect to connect the Oculus to an old dog and not get dizzy. Having a VERY powerful system, like 980ti on a high end i7 cpu, will ensure a positive experience with the new Oculus.

Edited February 9, 2016 by DerekSpeare

[metalnwood]

Maybe you are right but I'll wait to find out myself. Everyone is different. I for one don't see any difference between 120 FPS and 60FPS and only slight differences between 60 and 35. Other people say anything below 120 is rubbish. Some people get sick the second they get on a boat, others don't.

 

I think VR is going to be different for everyone and their prior experiences are going to shape it.

 

I know what you mean, a smooth experience can hide what the FPS actually are and sometimes 30 can look like 60. Coming from a screen like you I know what you mean by what various people can accept. 40 can be as good as 60, hard to tell 100 from 120, if you can etc.

 

The rift is different, whether it is an issue that is tied to the hardware I dont know but if you dip even a few frames below 75, the hardware refresh rate then you are in serious trouble.

 

If I was playing DCS on the monitor getting a nice 75 and it dipped to 65 I probably would not eve notice, the same as you. On the rift it works very differently, it is not smooth, you cant get a smooth 65fps on the rift and it can feel like landing with 8fps. It's terrible.

[Rangi]

@DerekSpeare can you please explain where you got the 3 layers from, it doesn't make sense to me.

[joebloggs]

I wonder if 90Hz is going to be any better then 75Hz when it comes to sickness. I'm fine with 75Hz sat in a cockpit in DCS, but First person shooters make me sick after about 20 mins. I'm not sure if 90Hz is going to make much of a difference in First person shooters, but I really hope it does.

 

I just wish there was some option to choose between 75Hz and 90Hz in CV1. I'm going to need an extra 30fps from somewhere for DCS and CV1 when it arrves. I already struggle to get constant 75FPS, so I might have to update to a Geforve 980ti or even a Titan Gp100 if it arrives in April.

[_Acoustic_]

Interesting last couple of pages of this thread, thanks for all the info/insights. I'm hoping my system can run DCS well, the only bottleneck I can see is the CPU but I guess I'll find out in March, or April I guess.

[Enduro14]

Everybody talks about fps with VR, well with my dk2 and Dcs I never got judder until the fps went down to 30 ish range. Also never once felt sick or had any problems so you can't blanket statement if you drop below 75 or 90 fps it's horrible because that is not true. Depends on the user. Everybody is forgetting the most important factor and that everybody responds differently to VR and its frame rates. Don't get wrapped around the axle my experience was awesome even when fps was in 40's but evidently I have very good VR tolerance.

[_Acoustic_]

I think the first time I use it I'll have a bucket next to my sim pit just in case. Haha

[Rangi]

Question for dk2 users that get the vr malady;

have you found that you build a tolerance to the queasiness, or is it as bad after months of use as when you first started?

[metalnwood]

Everybody talks about fps with VR, well with my dk2 and Dcs I never got judder until the fps went down to 30 ish range. Also never once felt sick or had any problems so you can't blanket statement if you drop below 75 or 90 fps it's horrible because that is not true. Depends on the user. Everybody is forgetting the most important factor and that everybody responds differently to VR and its frame rates. Don't get wrapped around the axle my experience was awesome even when fps was in 40's but evidently I have very good VR tolerance.

 

Hello, with respect to my reply on the topic, I wasnt so much saying that you would feel sick immediately if things got under 75 frames but unlike a monitor, you usually know if it has dipped below 75.

 

On a monitor if you dip from 75 to 60 you may not notice it has but you certainly do on the rift. As Derek also pointed out, under 75 and the dk2 will not do low persistence and that is noticeable for sure.

 

For software that supports timewarp and maintains 75 even though the game is less then the problem is much less and low persistence will still work.

 

My points were along the line that you cannot compare the changes in fps on a monitor to the rift, they do behave differently. Yes, it will effect different people to varying degrees but it is hard to argue with the research that oculus has done which says that most people benefit from the DK2 refresh rate and the CV1 refresh rate cured most of the people that still has issues with 75fps.

 

@Rangi I found I needed a small amount of time to get used to a racing cockpit, a slightly longer period of time to get used to a flying cockpit. I put this down to racing working perfectly and flying not having the framerate required so it can get to you a little. A tolerance will build up for it.

 

As far as first person shooters, thats a different ballgame for me. Cockpit experiences, no issues at all in the DK2. Running around. Yes, issues. I think you can build up the immunity but I dont play them enough to even try. I think a lot of that is related to lots of bobbing from walking/running in game that screws with the brain. I think they know that and will do something to make it work a bit better.

[joebloggs]

@Rangi -I handled the cockpit game fine, but I still want to puke after about 20 mins in first person games. I have tried to get used to playing this type of game, but I just cant handle because it's such a bad feeling. Once I start feeling sick I feel like that for hour after and don't even want to look at the Rift because it makes me feel even more sick. Some people recommend chewing ginger while using it and all sorts of other things, but I'd probably be sick from chewing ginger because I hate the stuff LOL.

 

Even though I fly jets mainly in DCS, I have to say the choppers are a blast in VR and are better then the Jets.

[Frusheen]

Question for dk2 users that get the vr malady;

have you found that you build a tolerance to the queasiness, or is it as bad after months of use as when you first started?

 

There seems to be two causes for sickness with me. With motion sickness I only ever have issues in games with first person movement. These are usually ported titles not designed for VR. In cockpit games such as DCS where you have a fixed reference I have no issues.

 

The second cause of sickness is judder. Any game which does not maintain high enough frame rate can be very uncomfortable. Initially this used to make me feel a bit queasy. Not so much anymore but it is still very uncomfortable and completely breaks immersion.

 

I don't get motion sick in real life so others who do may find their tolerance will vary.

 

Either way further improvements to game optimization and better rift implementation should see DCS becoming even more comfortable to use in VR.

[Enduro14]

Well I think one way of building up tolerance is to game on a 55 inch screen in 3D. Otherwise all the stuff I have done at work I'm sure helps aka scope and lots of Nvg's time. If you just a 2d gamer going to vr I can see where the adjustment period would come in. Also realize just because some company is stating all sickness is gone with 90 hz I call bs on it not everybody can handle certain stimulations of the brain. Don't read the hype across the Internet I would try a demo if your new to vr or had problems with the dk2 i foresee many cv1 on eBay in the ip coming months because we are only human and not all humans can do everything. Hence why we have selections in the military. New tech it's a gamble hope it works out for those new and those who had problems with dk2.

[Glowing_Amraam]

I've had the DK2 since the dev kits shipped, and I have never had any issues whatsoever. People get motion sick for various reasons, but people also get sick just by riding a car and not beeing able to see the road... It will be an issue for some people, but for most people it will not be an issue.

 

I've played maybe 50+ different VR demoes/games, from DCS, to FPS shooting and anything in between. For me, no issue, and you get used to how "it works" by looking around and moving around with the keyboard/controller or whatever.

 

But for games, such as where you move around using your own body, motion sickness would barely be an issue as long as you dont get any judders etc. That's my take on it anyway. I can't wait for these things to be released! :)

[_Acoustic_]

This is good stuff. I plan on taking up the P-51 first from a cold start and flying it like a passenger plane for the first couple hours rather than jumping in and pulling 5G turns and loops while engaged in ACM.