Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[Flim]

Oculus imho is much overhyped. Just because it has better res, it still bring a lot of issues.

As for now it has merely the same use that its low res grampas.

 

The issues at hand are the sames at 10 to 15 years ago.

You can t see your real cockpit environment -Hotas, keyboard, Pannel, MFD, re-center key etc - be it 100% cocpit like or not.

For FPS your aim ain t the ingame aim, moving is a chore because of the lack or your real environment awareness.

 

 

The only that will profit, are VR environment people, military/police environment training shooters maybe, 3d 360 movies, and "low player requirement games", like Matio bross race, basicly WII and Kinect based games.

And this will stay so until we have some serious tactile gloves with full environment setting, or a plug in the brain making us believe so. Because even a fully 3d mapped environmente will be a chore to config and map. If devices as voice activations are a pain, imagine a full 3d environment... any unintended movement and you will trip over your virtual invisible buttons.

 

So i m not even close to consider it, cause i ve seen this hype in the 90, in the Y2k, and now in Y201K.

The resolution, and movement head tracking are the least of the problems, and nobody has a solution for them.

 

Much faster than that will come flex monitors allied to extremely powerfull GFX cards able to support a 360 dome.

Those will make the Occulus rift and its kind mostly obsolete as you will be able to stand inside a cockpit, administrate mucj better fps even with, why not, a mockup weapon to point at targets, and have much more fluid and natural reactions than what you would have with occulus rift kind of device.

 

 

That is what people use to say about the computer... lol

 

flying low res even with the development kit is still more enjoyable than those 4k monitors... I had a Dell 4k...

[Pnume]

Oculus imho is much overhyped. Just because it has better res, it still bring a lot of issues.

As for now it has merely the same use that its low res grampas.

 

The issues at hand are the sames at 10 to 15 years ago.

You can t see your real cockpit environment -Hotas, keyboard, Pannel, MFD, re-center key etc - be it 100% cocpit like or not.

For FPS your aim ain t the ingame aim, moving is a chore because of the lack or your real environment awareness.

 

 

The only that will profit, are VR environment people, military/police environment training shooters maybe, 3d 360 movies, and "low player requirement games", like Matio bross race, basicly WII and Kinect based games.

And this will stay so until we have some serious tactile gloves with full environment setting, or a plug in the brain making us believe so. Because even a fully 3d mapped environmente will be a chore to config and map. If devices as voice activations are a pain, imagine a full 3d environment... any unintended movement and you will trip over your virtual invisible buttons.

 

So i m not even close to consider it, cause i ve seen this hype in the 90, in the Y2k, and now in Y201K.

The resolution, and movement head tracking are the least of the problems, and nobody has a solution for them.

 

Much faster than that will come flex monitors allied to extremely powerfull GFX cards able to support a 360 dome.

Those will make the Occulus rift and its kind mostly obsolete as you will be able to stand inside a cockpit, administrate mucj better fps even with, why not, a mockup weapon to point at targets, and have much more fluid and natural reactions than what you would have with occulus rift kind of device.

 

I own a kit and honestly you sound like a worm talking about the sun.

 

I tried Live for Speed ( a race sim) with vireio. The issues you points for sims (I played with a wheel) are pretty much non-issues even though it is a matter of personnal convenience. The resolution of the current rift already give a very convincing experience.

 

Btw having played Half life 2 with the rift for hours your comment about FPS is a bit funny :pilotfly:

Sure it is lacking in certain areas and for some games it shows but the main problem is the resolution and it should be solve pretty quickly. The 1080p should be enough for many kind of experiences. I'm sure the 1440p won't be that far behind too.

 

Haters gonna hate :music_whistling:

[npole]

Haters gonna hate :music_whistling:

 

They aren't really haters, but "old people" (i'm talking about their mentality) that refuses to accept the innovation because they doesn't really understand how it works: if I don't understand something, I call it "useless".

 

Luckily these ppl are left behind by the progress. They won't cause much damage tho (unless they can make decisions, and most of them can't)... you can just ignore em. ;)

[Succellus]

I own a kit and honestly you sound like a worm talking about the sun.

 

I tried Live for Speed ( a race sim) with vireio. The issues you points for sims (I played with a wheel) are pretty much non-issues even though it is a matter of personnal convenience. The resolution of the current rift already give a very convincing experience.

 

Btw having played Half life 2 with the rift for hours your comment about FPS is a bit funny :pilotfly:

Sure it is lacking in certain areas and for some games it shows but the main problem is the resolution and it should be solve pretty quickly. The 1080p should be enough for many kind of experiences. I'm sure the 1440p won't be that far behind too.

 

Haters gonna hate :music_whistling:

 

As for worm talking about the sun, i was there a bit before you maybe, in the 90, i almost bought a device, but was lucky to be able to test it first, and resolution wasn t really the problem. Even with ef2000 and simpler hotas of that time it wasn t really working. 20 years after and we are still there, at the same point.

As about how it work i saw some videos exposing it, nothing new here, just more of the same more advanced, henceforth same issues.

Anyone using it for flamming cliff 3 for example, X-series, Evochron, A10c ? Guess not, and YET is far, especially with a functional cockpit

 

As i sayd "low requirement games", should have worded low IRL "ambience", which racing fall under, a wheel and 3 pedals.

HL2 is a low tier FPS in device demand, don t need much but a multi button mouse + arrows.

 

I would be surprise if your able to play it with multi comunication channels, multi options weaponry like Arma3 were you need much more commands. Althought some devices conjunction could dampen the problem like "complex" Throttle + Mouse .

 

Haters gonna hate, fanboys gonna lick it keeping it shinny...:music_whistling:

 

I m not a hater, it just the fact its a scheme that has still too many constraints with no simple way to deal with, at least for more demanding sims, or peole that already have some kind ofcockpit mockup...

Edited July 10, 2013 by Succellus

[metalnwood]

I race open tops so everything I need is on the wheel and I can access it without seeing it.

 

The OR is going to be awesome for this when the resolution is right.

 

It is far to broad a statement to say that this is not going to work for sims. There are plenty of sims that this is going to work for. There are still questions to be answered for the other parts that tie it all together like interacting with the virtual cockpit.

 

You know there are still flight simmers about that like to fly simple aircraft that dont have these interation issues you are talking about.

 

Here are some common sim scenarios that there are still a lot of people around that like to do.

 

Rise of flight - everything can be done off hotas without looking.

il2, other ww2. Similar to above.

Gliding - The OR would give the most awesome experience for gliding in simulators.

Bush flying in something like xpx, fsx with good old stick/rudder planes.

racing.

 

Your generalisation of the technology is only applicable to a few highly interactive cockpits, not simulation as a whole.

[Flim]

Lol, I train in level D simulators and still have more fun flying in the rift. Better resolution and positional tracking will be the most awesome advancement for gaming/entertainment . Can't wait!

Edited July 11, 2013 by Flim

[Pnume]

As for worm talking about the sun, i was there a bit before you maybe, in the 90, i almost bought a device, but was lucky to be able to test it first, and resolution wasn t really the problem. Even with ef2000 and simpler hotas of that time it wasn t really working. 20 years after and we are still there, at the same point.

As about how it work i saw some videos exposing it, nothing new here, just more of the same more advanced, henceforth same issues.

Anyone using it for flamming cliff 3 for example, X-series, Evochron, A10c ? Guess not, and YET is far, especially with a functional cockpit

 

As i sayd "low requirement games", should have worded low IRL "ambience", which racing fall under, a wheel and 3 pedals.

HL2 is a low tier FPS in device demand, don t need much but a multi button mouse + arrows.

 

I would be surprise if your able to play it with multi comunication channels, multi options weaponry like Arma3 were you need much more commands. Althought some devices conjunction could dampen the problem like "complex" Throttle + Mouse .

 

Haters gonna hate, fanboys gonna lick it keeping it shinny...:music_whistling:

 

I m not a hater, it just the fact its a scheme that has still too many constraints with no simple way to deal with, at least for more demanding sims, or peole that already have some kind ofcockpit mockup...

 

I actually tried a vr device somewhere in the first half of the nineties. It was not a product for sale but an attraction in an amusement park. Pretty impressive at that time but shitty by today's standards.

 

It doesn't even come close to the rift. They are world apart.

 

I'm sure you have convince yourself that it is crap and so it is but can we give any credit to someone who talk about something he haven't tried? Are you even honest with yourself there?

[npole]

It's the same concept of years ago, but with a big important difference: the screens (at human price) required to build a effective HMD appeared only today.

You could have imagined the same HMD 10 years ago, but you couldn't have built it.

This is why the Oculus Rift is finally the real deal, and not the "virtual reality" we're used to see advertised around years ago.

The fact that ED is ignoring it (and the devkit) while the rest of the world is implementing it in any type of game is really frustrating.

If you ever tried a OR you know what I am talking about.. it gives so much fun that really "forces" you to play something else who supports it, because your favorite game (in this case DCS) doesn't work with it.

One example? War Thunder has nothing to do much with a simulator, neither I like it much, but with the OR IT IS a blast! ..and more you play it, more you ask yourself: why the hell ED is not moving a finger?

This is really frustrating...

[Vivoune]

there has been a little revolution in screen technologies the past few years, mostly thanks to the smart phone boom and portable tablets. That's why the OR is now possible. It still needs the tech to go a bit further though so it can be made with great resolution and more cheaply, right now most high-tech screen manufacturers kind of laugh at OculusVR when they present the low numbers they'd like manufactured when they're used to big numbers cellphone contracts, that's a barrier. but with 4320p screens coming our way (aka 8k) and always ongoing miniaturization who knows where we'll be a year or two from now.

[Mnemonic]

I was referring to the 'sense of being there' achieved by the OR. That was absent in older designs that felt more like you are looking at a screen floating in the dark.

Oculus Rift optical design, and all the pre-warping image technique mimics Leap design:

http://www.leepvr.com/about.php

Which was used in professional HMDs in the eighties.

I have HMD from 1993, with 120 degree FOV, which provides similar sense.

 

Benefit is that now all the components are cheap enough to build similar HMD but much cheaper, and also lighter and better rez.

[tintifaxl]

ED concentrates on EDGE now - I guess there is just no time to implement new features right now.

[Cyb0rg]

Oculus Rift optical design, and all the pre-warping image technique mimics Leap design:

http://www.leepvr.com/about.php

Which was used in professional HMDs in the eighties.

I have HMD from 1993, with 120 degree FOV, which provides similar sense.

 

Benefit is that now all the components are cheap enough to build similar HMD but much cheaper, and also lighter and better rez.

 

Yeah. Check this in the 60s.

 

 

 

Keyboard was out of question, i guess.

[Mnemonic]

Man, your sarcasm here is unnecessary, it is not smart here.

And btw this Toshiba helm is from 200x era.

Did you opened the link on leepvr?

 

Read this: http://www.leepvr.com/spie1990.php

 

Distortion is certainly necessary, for example, if a 180° field of view, or even something approaching it, is to be contained on a flat plane, as it must be in order to appear in most video systems. In the case of the LEEP system, a very wide field of view is warped onto a plane surface by a fisheye-like transformation. Of course this transformation must be undone and the correct angles of view restored if the space is to be correctly rendered for the person viewing, who, we then say, sees an "orthospace."

 

Palmer himself says this in every video that it is nothing new, just finally affordable, and with better specs.

I love Rift actually, this is the best HMD in my collection, I just see that it is not suitable for DCS yet.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Mnemonic

[Cyb0rg]

Man, your sarcasm here is unnecessary, it is not smart here.

And btw this Toshiba helm is from 200x era.

Did you opened the link on leepvr?

 

Yep, Good reading. Tks for the link.

[npole]

ED concentrates on EDGE now - I guess there is just no time to implement new features right now.

 

You need to add the support of it, nor the "feature"... and for a basic implementation (rendering + tracking) you need days .. nor weeks or months.

So it's not like you have to abandon what you're doing to dedicate your time into the Oculus Rift, it's more: dedicate some working hours of a single coder into it.

 

This is not a matter of lack of resources.. this is just about ignoring "the future" (and being late when anyone else is already there...).

[Vivoune]

You need to add the support of it, nor the "feature"... and for a basic implementation (rendering + tracking) you need days .. nor weeks or months.

So it's not like you have to abandon what you're doing to dedicate your time into the Oculus Rift, it's more: dedicate some working hours of a single coder into it.

 

This is not a matter of lack of resources.. this is just about ignoring "the future" (and being late when anyone else is already there...).

 

I'm sure if the Occulus Rift comes out in a consumer version which resolution make HUDs and cockpit gauges readable they will eventually implement the code to support it but let's not put the carriage ahead of the horses just yet, that product is not even released and is still in the process of being designed. As much as I love the OR there's not much point in supporting it in it's devkit version given the low 720p resolution and lack of 6DOF. IMHO.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Vivoune

[npole]

I'm sure if the Occulus Rift comes out in a consumer version

 

Doesn't make sense, the devkit has the purpose of let you support the hardware now, so you'll be in time for the retail version (because after the support, you have much time to fine tune it and correct the possible issues). Waiting for the retail version is plain stupid (in fact who's supporting the OR, it's doing it today.. nor the next year).

We already know that the OR consumer version will have a min of 1080p screen and the 6dof tracking, there's no need to wait for it to believe it.

[Bushmanni]

As long as the resolution is high enough to read instruments and see far off enemies, FOV is at least 90 degrees and head tracking is of good quality VR helmet will revolutionize flight simming. Seeing the world in 3d is a major benefit in flying and aiming the guns in addition to the immersion it creates. While a pit with multiple projectors might be better than a VR helmet you will need lots of space and expensive equipment for it that most of us can't afford. And while projectors and GFX cards might become more powerful and cheaper in the furure, so will the tech for VR helmets. I just can't see how multiple projectors can ever be cheaper than a single VR helmet.

 

I don't mind the people who can see only the negative in new stuff but ED needs to seriously check this tech out as it has huge potential..

[Flim]

I'm the only one to use a 5 projector setup in Dcs and worked pretty well, but the cost is pretty high like mentioned above as well as the time it takes to setup. I have a rift as well and honestly enjoy flying Dcs more than the Cube setup. The normal cockpit view makes it hard to read any kind of small text (such as the mfd's), but I assigned snap views to quickly view what I need to see. Outside eye ball flying works really well even at the current low resolution. I'm still convinced that the rift is the most immersive flying experience you can have without actually being in a real aircraft.

[Kaiza]

I am not sure why people are getting so wound up about ED not supporting this? What evidense is there that they are not already looking at it?

 

I reckon ED will be looking at it already. The reason they won't be commenting is because we all know what happens when a potential feature is hinted at, and then for whatever reason doesn't work out and is not implemented. All hell breaks loose on this forum with people saying "I only bought this software because you said it would have feature X and it doesn't, boohoo give me my money back".

 

Best plan for them is to be 100% sure before making any statements I reckon.

[Mnemonic]

Hey Flim can you please tell me what do you use to properly run Rift in DCS?

Did you managed to setup stereo? If you use Vireo, could you please post your settings?

 

Thanks!

[Flim]

Sure, I'm out on a trip and will post my monitor viewport setup when I get home tomorrow.

[mrniel]

If the resolution is to low to use in DCS, i'm no to worried. There will be lost of other games where it will be marvelous and immersive.

After all, remember the upcoming model will be MK1. and sell like crazy.

With a sucess like that i'm sure MK2 wont be far off.

I remember Ipad is starting to use retina dispalys, where you can't see the pixels at book range, so im sure there will come far better models within a few years.

[Vivoune]

Doesn't make sense, the devkit has the purpose of let you support the hardware now, so you'll be in time for the retail version (because after the support, you have much time to fine tune it and correct the possible issues). Waiting for the retail version is plain stupid (in fact who's supporting the OR, it's doing it today.. nor the next year).

We already know that the OR consumer version will have a min of 1080p screen and the 6dof tracking, there's no need to wait for it to believe it.

 

What is your source about 6DOF for the consumer version? Last time I checked they were merely considering it given the technical difficulties they were facing it wasn't a priority. 1080p, still is too low to properly read a detailed HUD and gauges, not to mention spotting the tiny dots that is the enemy. Have you tried the OR? It's not like a regular screen, 720p is far from achieving the 720p resolution of a single monitor. It is all blurry and doesn't allow you to read anything. I don't know if ED is working on implementing it or not and if your whining is even relevant but whatever ED choose I'm sure it'll be for the best of DCS.

 

P.S You shouldn't be so inclined to call "stupid" people's actions you either don't understand or agree with

Edited July 14, 2013 by Vivoune

[npole]

What is your source about 6DOF for the consumer version?

 

There's even the pins to connect the sensor on the current PCB. The retail version will deffo have a 6dof positional tracking (you need around $40 to add it, by buying a completely separate device, like the Hydra.. so imagine what would be the price of introducing just the sensor into the OR ... won't make sense otherwise).

 

1080p, still is too low to properly read a detailed HUD and gauges, not to mention spotting the tiny dots that is the enemy.

 

1080p will be great, also we don't know for sure if they really go for 1080p or for something more (possible two versions?), btw I never tried the 1080p version, so I can't judge, looking at the opinions around (E3), who tried it, have said that isn't just slightly better.. but a giant step forward, I believe it's pretty than enough to read the HUD.

What I know is that this tech revitalized a certain type of gaming, and any game supporting it is having "free" advertising all around.

We should join the new technology, this company is dying because of the niche market, we should attract more people, nor looking at the window hoping for the best.

The OR implementation requires a very minimal coding effort, and the "advertising" in return is much higher than the time spent on it (regardless of the technical issues), ignoring it woul dbe wrong.