Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[blackbelter]

Just something for you to consider:

1) not attacking the product in any way - that's how OR is and how it performs.

2) I'm attacking only the myths and delusions surrounding OR

3) I'm giving you the opportunity judge for yourself THE REAL THING

 

yeah - right - and rift will be also cure for cancer and world hunger...

 

Nope, that is not how OR is and how it performs. That is how YOU perceived it. There is no such thing as the real thing when subjectivity plays the major part in the judgement. Whether it is a myth or delusion (or neither) is not for you to say the final word. Everybody has their own opinion.

 

OR is not a solution to world hunger, nobody is saying that except you. Such nonsensical amateurish humour does not help you here.

 

And by the way, the 2D picture you posted about a 3D view is misleading. That much I am sure.

Edited July 2, 2014 by blackbelter

[Chazz_BMF]

Some news about DK2 shipping !!!

 

https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10044

[zahry]

Nope, that is not how OR is and how it performs. That is how YOU perceived it. There is no such thing as the real thing when subjectivity plays the major part in the judgement. Whether it is a myth or delusion (or neither) is not for you to say the final word. Everybody has their own opinion.

 

OR is not a solution to world hunger, nobody is saying that except you. Such nonsensical amateurish humour does not help you here.

 

And by the way, the 2D picture you posted about a 3D view is misleading. That much I am sure.

Q 1: do you have OR?

Q 2: do you play DCS on it?

Q 3: how are the screenshots subjective? (hint - it's a screenshot!!!)

Q 4: if you think it is subjective - can YOU read the instruments, MFDs and recognize targets without banging your head on the wall/table constantly in attempt to zoom in?

Q 5 can you post your screenshots?

[blackbelter]

Q 1: do you have OR?

Q 2: do you play DCS on it?

Q 3: how are the screenshots subjective? (hint - it's a screenshot!!!)

Q 4: if you think it is subjective - can YOU read the instruments, MFDs and recognize targets without banging your head on the wall/table constantly in attempt to zoom in?

Q 5 can you post your screenshots?

 

I see you have difficulty comprehending my post, so I will make things clearer for you. The screenshot is misleading, not subjective as you understood it. It is misleading because:

 

Firstly, it is a single-eye 2D shot trying to represent a 3D view, which is unavoidably misleading. If I cover one of your eyes, and tell you the world is flat, since you can't perceive any depth with a single eye, will you buy it? Granted you are trying to show the lack of pixels not depth, but it amounts to the same thing. The brain will superimpose the pixels of two images to form the whole picture (just like how depth is perceived), which is different from that percieved by a single eye. This also leads to the next point.

 

Secondly, the screenshot is from a dev kit, not a consumer product. You are attacking it as if it in its final state (esp. Resolutionwise). I think the word 'misleading' is made specifically for arguments such as yours.

 

Most of your comments are subjective. Hope things are clearer now.

 

Your attacking (yes, you are attacking) won't generate more sales to your product. It only make you look desperate. And that does you no good. Might as well save yourself some time, which cam be better spent in perfecting your own product.

 

I find these discussion pointless, thus I will refrain from posting on this topic again.

 

But you can still carry on, I am sure.

Edited July 2, 2014 by blackbelter

[zahry]

I see you have difficulty comprehending my post, so I will make things clearer for you. The screenshot is misleading, not subjective as you understood it. It is misleading because:

 

Firstly, it is a single-eye 2D shot trying to represent a 3D view, which is unavoidably misleading. If I cover one of your eyes, and tell you the world is flat, since you can't perceive any depth with a single eye, will you buy it? Granted you are trying to show the lack of pixels not depth, but it amounts to the same thing. The brain will superimpose the pixels of two images to form the whole picture (just like how depth is perceived), which is different from that percieved by a single eye. This also leads to the next point.

 

Secondly, the screenshot is from a dev kit, not a consumer product. You are attacking it as if it in its final state (esp. Resolutionwise). I think the word 'misleading' is made specifically for arguments such as yours.

 

Most of your comments are subjective. Hope things are clearer now.

 

Your attacking (yes, you are attacking) won't generate more sales to your product. It only make you look desperate. And that does you no good. Might as well save yourself some time, which cam be better spent in perfecting your own product.

 

I find these discussion pointless, thus I will refrain from posting on this topic again.

 

But you can still carry on, I am sure.

Oh - so you never had or tried rift - now I get it :-D. That makes you practically THE expert on rift :-D

 

ok - so once you buy it or try it I suggest you try the 4 tricks I mentioned earlier - it really makes things less frustrating with rift + DCS and perhaps you won't feel like you bought a sugarcoated lemon.

 

FYI: if I was a complete bastard I would suggest that everybody would BUY the rift because it makes almost everything look better after you sober up from the hype - I even appreciate my monitors bit more now :D :D.

And BTW: Feel free to make any suggestions how to make the things better - just because I refuse to to get brainwashed by the OR marketing doesn't mean I'm not interested in the technology or help to find a way how to make things work

Edited July 2, 2014 by zahry

[Chivas]

the mig 29 pic is DK1, the other one is DK2/CV1 as per present announcements (source wiki) - you can upscale image on ati cards quite easy - you won't be able to physically see the image improvement in rift because of the display limited resolution. But you can take screenshot and view it on monitor which has usually more than double the amount of perceived pixels.

 

You'll find that any honest DK1 owner (and I'm sure in future even DK2 owners as well) will confirm that's pretty much all the detail what you get. There is also plenty of screenshots on web which you can blow up to correct size to verify that's the fact and reality of OR. Of course if you'll view it as a thumbnail if will look good but once you zoom in our print it out in the adequate size you'll see it's a different story and the resolution is simply too poor.

 

Again the image is not representative of the CV1. The DK1, DK2, and CVI will all have different resolutions and features. The DK2 is 1080P which probably still isn't good enough yet, but the CV1 will be atleast 1440. Your basing your opinion on the DK1, which I'm sure is valid, but limited, with little to do with the final product. I'll be testing DCS with the DK2 sometime in the next month or so, but will withhold judgement until the CV1 release which should have quite a number of feature upgrades over the DK2.

[bongodriver]

zahry

 

1. do you have OR?

2. you do know it's a developer kit?

3. no seriously, you do know that right?

4. do projection systems cure cancer?

[zahry]

zahry

 

1. do you have OR?

2. you do know it's a developer kit?

3. no seriously, you do know that right?

4. do projection systems cure cancer?

 

1) yes - had is more precise term - although I'll have here another kit which friend of mine was going to bin - anybody interested can come and try it

2) yes - do you know development kits are released for testers to pointing out flaws and weak points so the developers get the product better? (although normally the testers get paid for it)

3) yes - seriously - do you know that if you accept the marketing scam instead of demanding real improvements the OR stereoscopic goggles will suck the same as the old models?

4) probably with the same success that rift can be alternative to monitors and projection systems :D ;-)

 

you can get the exact picture and screenshot from CV1 WITHOUT the CV1 - option 1) just upscale to 1440, take a screenshot and view on normal monitor.

Option 2) take a screenshot at 2560 x 1440, use photoshop and crop the image to 1280 x 1440, use the dk1 screen shot as a guide and use the photoshop warp function to squeeze the image to the active area (same as DK1) and you got exactly the same image the CV1 would have if they will use 1440 display. - i can upload screenshots 5760 x 2160 where the 2160 covers the same vertical FoV as rift (90º)

 

here is the full image 5760 x 2160 (FoV is set to cover vertically 100º angular sizes are 1:1 with real life)

 

here is detail of instruments in 2160p - that's the image resolution the projection systems have and the minimum rift deserves

 

 

 

and here is the image resolution the hypotetical CV1 will have if they will use 1440p

 

 

and the last one is with DK2 resolution

[bongodriver]

Clue is in the name, it's not a testers kit, it's a developers kit i.e. it is basic hardware designed to give developers a tool to test the functionality of their implementation into software they create to support it, they have simply allowed the hardware to spill onto the enthusiast market to get samples out there promoting the idea behind it, only an idiot would be attempting to review it as a finished product at this stage.

[Kuky]

I think zahry is trying to say (with good intention and being realistic because he's seen DK1 in action himself) that even with 1080p the resolution won't be enough to have clear image to read the HUS and instruments (without having to zoom in completely on them) and I think he has a fair point.

[bongodriver]

I also have DK1 and find his perspective too bleak.

[Kuky]

Well I can't speak as I've never tried one, but I am now bit reserved with OR... I will wait till I hear lot of people's responses once the final product is out.

[bongodriver]

That's the advice Oculus themselves would give, it's not like they have ever promised the flight sim community specifically that this is the answer to their dreams.

[Kuky]

it's not like they have ever promised the flight sim community specifically that this is the answer to their dreams.

 

well they kind off are saying exactly that... that this VR will be the ultimate device for gamers, which includes flight sims.

[bongodriver]

well no, they said gamers and not specifically flight simmers, so not exactly that at all, what they are saying is that as this develops it will become the ultimate peripheral because you will not get the same presence from any other device.

[zahry]

well no, they said gamers and not specifically flight simmers, so not exactly that at all, what they are saying is that as this develops it will become the ultimate peripheral because you will not get the same presence from any other device.

Just to clarify - are you saying now the rift is unsuitable for flight simulation? because I had a impression earlier on that you were saying exactly the opposite. I'm definitely behind kuky - the way they present it it sounds like it's the best thing since slice bread, revolution is stereoscopy and over all fantastic experience - which it's none of that.

 

FIY - I'll tell you sweet little secret - the alleged upgrades are only matter of swapping displays which are already available in korea, china and taiwan including those 1440p (alright - there could be minor mods too). The bottom line is that the improved versions are way how to scam more money from people - the money is in selling the hype - not the actual product. They are just drip feeding the market bit by bit to milk it instead of delivering what they promised 2 years ago and what they got the money for in the first place. And as long as you'll believe the marketing scam they will carry on cheating you and everybody else who supported them in kickstarter and through the devkits

[chaos]

This field is still in its infancy. One thing is clear is that you need lots of horsepower in order to recreate the same visual fidelity as your monitor. M. Abrash himself said 2016 would be the year VR and computer hardware are at a point where the _minimum_ requirements are met... and I think even that is optimistic.

 

We'll get there, I'm sure, but it needs a couple of iterations before it truly becomes a 'must have-' item for the serious sim enthusiast.

 

Don't count CastAR out of the fight....

Edited July 2, 2014 by chaos

[bongodriver]

Just to clarify - are you saying now the rift is unsuitable for flight simulation? because I had a impression earlier on that you were saying exactly the opposite. I'm definitely behind kuky - the way they present it it sounds like it's the best thing since slice bread, revolution is stereoscopy and over all fantastic experience - which it's none of that.

 

FIY - I'll tell you sweet little secret - the alleged upgrades are only matter of swapping displays which are already available in korea, china and taiwan including those 1440p (alright - there could be minor mods too). The bottom line is that the improved versions are way how to scam more money from people - the money is in selling the hype - not the actual product. They are just drip feeding the market bit by bit to milk it instead of delivering what they promised 2 years ago and what they got the money for in the first place. And as long as you'll believe the marketing scam they will carry on cheating you and everybody else who supported them in kickstarter and through the devkits

 

Nope, never said it's suitable for combat flight sims in it's current form, but it is good enough to use to just fly around and get a sense of presence.

 

The rest of your post makes it clear you have a very biased view so it is not worth going into.

[zahry]

This field is still in its infancy. One thing is clear is that you need lots of horsepower in order to recreate the same visual fidelity as your monitor. M. Abrash himself said 2016 would be the year VR and computer hardware are at a point where the _minumum_ requirements are met... and I think even that is optimistic.

 

We'll get there, I'm sure, but it needs a couple of iterations before it truly becomes a 'must have-' item for the serious sim enthusiast.

 

Don't count CastAR out of the fight....

+1 on castAR.

 

Stereoscopy is actually almost 150 years old technology and 3D HMDs are commercially available since 1994 so it's not exactly a novelty. I think with the development of the oled displays and nvidia reversed lightbox technology which is pretty amazing and true revolution there is a bright future for HMDs - providing nobody will pull the handbrake on progress in exchange for profits (as it often happens)

 

bongodriver - if you take the OR apart you will find out it's not exactly a rocket science and there is nothing much to it. It's pretty much unchanged since the free plans emerged on mtbs3d and thingiverse - just the outside packaging improved and they added a strap ...

Edited July 2, 2014 by zahry

[bongodriver]

bongodriver - if you take the OR apart you will find out it's not exactly a rocket science and there is nothing much to it. It's pretty much unchanged since the free plans emerged on mtbs3d and thingiverse - just the outside packaging improved and they added a strap ...

 

Yep, already done that, not that I needed to, even Palmer Luckey has been saying the same thing for years.......sadly you decided that your vastly superior understanding of things was not worthy of the rest of us and we all had to wait for Palmer to get something practical done.

[159th_Viper]

Yeah, that's my question: Now with the sudden influx of all the capital they can ever wish for, why are they not pulling their finger out of their backsides and vamping up development, specifically as it relates to the screens and resolutions?

 

How difficult can it be to get some of the latest Samsung tech in there? They are partnered with Samsung now aren't they?

 

Rather than do so, they keep plodding along at a pace prior to Zucky taking over. I would have thought that cash would speed up proceedings. Start with the absolute best equipment available I would have thought, but here they're still buggering about with ultra-low res screens.

 

What am I missing?

[bongodriver]

What are you missing? just the simple fact that until DK2's arrive and developers start implementing the positional tracking into existing or new titles then there is little point in mentioning much about the CV1.

[zahry]

Yeah, that's my question: Now with the sudden influx of all the capital they can ever wish for, why are they not pulling their finger out of their backsides and vamping up development, specifically as it relates to the screens and resolutions?

 

How difficult can it be to get some of the latest Samsung tech in there? They are partnered with Samsung now aren't they?

 

Rather than do so, they keep plodding along at a pace prior to Zucky taking over. I would have thought that cash would speed up proceedings. Start with the absolute best equipment available I would have thought, but here they're still buggering about with ultra-low res screens.

 

What am I missing?

exactly my point - it's just a display with corrective optics

- if you replace the rift ancient display with galaxy tab 2560 x 1600 you get far better resolution in and instant (and it is samsung) Or grab the rift lenses, put there surface pro 3 and install warping/blending program and you'll have 2160x1440 goggles and you don't even need any pc anymore... and all tablets/cells have excellent accelerometers and cameras for enhanced positional tracking - there is hydra, trackIR and tons of others that couls have been implemented ages ago. even the old VR920 had 6 dof so it has nothing to do with developers - rift pocketed the money so why should everybody else do the work for them? Edited July 2, 2014 by zahry

[Kuky]

I am wondering why on earth they are not using flexible displays so they can get very nice/wide FoV and cover that peripheral vision fully, heck with 2 such screens they could cover the whole FoV? This tech is already available... why not even try to use it? Really, the only expensive bit in that VR should be the optics, and it should not be just a simple round lens. If they want to make this as good and usable as they want, then they need to make much much higher resolutions per eye and cover that whole FoV... anything less than that won't make it as good as they claim it will be.

[bongodriver]

I still wonder why man doesn't have a manned moon base.