volk Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Let's say that in general we agree and leave things there for now.Согласиться с текущим положением вещей, я правильно понял? Это невозможно и неприемлемо, т. к. Р-27Р (ЭР) является единственной ракетой с радиолокационным наведением двух самолетов в игре - Су-27 и Су-33. У F-15, кроме AIM-7, есть еще AIM-120, МиГ-29 несет Р-77, а у Су-27/33 - только Р-27. Стойкость Р/ЭР к дипольным отражателям должна быть пересмотрена, а возможно не только для Р-27, но и для и всех ракет. Наверное, есть смысл вернуться к параметрам, заложенным в Горячих Скалах 2 для всех ракет. В документации ясно сказано, что в РГС-27 приняты методы защиты от дипольных отражателей. Это должно быть отражено в игре. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Anecdotal testing (too tired to formally test and report tonight) suggests the 27R is just as if not more useless. Formal tracks to follow but it seems the 27R/ER family is wasted on chaff. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Take the time and come back when more fixing has been done. :) [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 No, my opinion is that there is a lot more that needs to be done to simulate counter-measure rejection properly. While newer missiles like AIM-120B/C and R-77 should not be sensitive to chaff, they should be sensitive to chaff+jammer for example. Older missiles should be sensitive to chaff, and have a lot of problems with chaff+jammer. But more importantly, the above distinctions are meaningless because the simulation cannot handle them. First the rejection of chaff (and flares also) must be more realistically modeled (so for example no sensitivity to chaff anywhere outside of the 3-9 line, unless for very old missiles. For heat seekers the radiation curve for aircraft heat should be more accurately modeled than just three values of idle/max/abfterburner + aspect). Согласиться с текущим положением вещей, я правильно понял? Это невозможно и неприемлемо, т. к. Р-27Р (ЭР) является единственной ракетой с радиолокационным наведением двух самолетов в игре - Су-27 и Су-33. У F-15, кроме AIM-7, есть еще AIM-120, МиГ-29 несет Р-77, а у Су-27/33 - только Р-27. Стойкость Р/ЭР к дипольным отражателям должна быть пересмотрена, а возможно не только для Р-27, но и для и всех ракет. Наверное, есть смысл вернуться к параметрам, заложенным в Горячих Скалах 2 для всех ракет. В документации ясно сказано, что в РГС-27 приняты методы защиты от дипольных отражателей. Это должно быть отражено в игре. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71st_Mastiff Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Aim 7 Sparrow AIM9L :joystick:So whos right us or them? " any failure you meet, is never a defeat; merely a set up for a greater come back, " W Forbes "Success is not final, failure is not fatal, it is the courage to continue that counts," Winston Churchill " He who never changes his mind, never changes anything," MSI z690MPG DDR4 || i914900k|| ddr4-64gb PC3200 || MSI RTX 4070Ti|Game1300w|Win10x64| |turtle beach elite pro 5.1|| ViRpiL,T50cm2|| MFG Crosswinds|| VT50CM-plus rotor Throttle || G10 RGB EVGA Keyboard/MouseLogitech || PiMax Crystal VR || 32 Samsung|| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon_120 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I don't get what you mean. As stated several times range is a function of several variables, and give a unique number is both unrepresentative and innacurate if not is accompanied by the conditions at which that number applies. Not to mention that exact ranges are classified,that number is a rough estimation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) R testing As requested, testing the 27R. Same as before except 2 missile volleys are launched at closer ranges. To recap. -2 missiles launched at ~20km range -Angels 6.5-7 -Further 2 missile volley launched much closer in if first volley fails At all times lock is maintained. Target is above launch platform and not in the notch 5 tracks with chaff. 5 without. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fwpsjgnsubl1yd8/uQIA-A6bxk Testing with target chaffing R1 - 2 launches - 2 missiles track R2 - 4 launches - 3 missiles go for chaff, 1 tracks R3 - 2 launches - 1 missile goes for chaff 1 tracks (ignore last 2 launches) R4 - 4 launches - 3 missiles go for chaff, 1 tracks R5 - 4 launches - 4 missiles go for chaff 16 missiles launched - 5 track - 11 missguide to chaff for no good reason Testing with target Not chaffing R6-10 NO CHAFF - 4 missiles launched in each volley. ALL TRACK. Most run out of energy as target turns and runs without chaff. My conclusion The R is equally affected. pTrack(TM Rage) falls to 31% due to chaff when the chaff should be ineffectual. If you watch the tracks/tacviews some of the missile detours when it misstracks are quite spectacular. Otherwise its dead off the rails. The 27R/ER family is the only BVR missile available for the russian birds, and in its current state is fairly useless. If you agree with my analysis can this be escalated to ED? Edited May 24, 2013 by ///Rage [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Right in what sense? Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoGas Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karambiatos Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 your link, it doesnt work A 1000 flights, a 1000 crashes, perfect record. =&arrFilter_pf[gameversion]=&arrFilter_pf[filelang]=&arrFilter_pf[aircraft]=&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC"] Check out my random mods and things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellonet Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 The encyclopedia states 45 km for range, and that is approximately 28 miles. So... huh?!? i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Links corrected. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Missile Range Discussion Do you think the R-27 missile family is downgraded and the range is so poor? Edited May 24, 2013 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 The missiles are being worked on anyway, by a crew that is not part of ED. By Engineers non the less... [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 . Same Speed, same altitud and I get a LA at 50km.... And? Where's the problem, keeping in mind that the ER has an absolute max range of 60km? Without knowing your speed/altitude, 50km may very well be correct in your particular circumstances. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Apologies - correction to range above: Absolute max range of 66km for ER at 10 000m. Edited May 24, 2013 by 159th_Viper Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Apologies - correction to range above: Absolute max range of 66km for ER at 10 000m. please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m. Maybe is this one ?? ( this range info is against a fighter, fighter means high maneuverability ). Take a look, there is no bigs differences between the R-27R: http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/527/?PHPSESSID=fe50b0c7ffa10f5de681099978de74ef PD: Also will be great you share with us the official info about the Aim-7 and the Aim-120 against a fighter [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m. SU-27 Weapons Delivery Manual. No, I do not have a copy to link to, you are just going to have to take my word for it. Regarding US missiles, no authoritative idea. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 This thread IS ABOUT TRACKING/GUIDANCE of the R/RE. Please dont dilute or derail the thread. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkspade Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 The AIM-7 is just as vulnerable to chaff as the R-27s are. They are pretty much always apart of my loadout, so I use them a lot. Many times I've watched them fail to guide right off the rail, at ranges under 10nm. At the same time I've watched the smoke trail of ERs fired at me continue to guide when I'm trying to notch. Really though all the radar missiles can be chaff decoyed fairly easily in the right scenario, even when it doesn't seem logical. The is some particular 'magic' angle where actives will miss at close range (~7nm), head-on aspect while looking up. No jamming either. Speaking of jamming as mentioned earlier in this thread, that it should complicate guidance even inside what we've deemed as burn-through. However in case where I even bother to use it, I'm still in the practice of turning it off since FC2 due to the behavior of missiles (SARH) continuing to track the jammer even after the host craft has broken lock. http://104thphoenix.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 It's about tracking/guidance of every radar (and maybe other!) missile in the game, since they all use the same stuff. I've seen 120's quit tracking because they felt like it against non-chaffing, head-on targets for example. While less obnoxious than R-27's not tracking at all, the point is that everything is affected. Thanks for the reports, the devs will be looking into it like always. This thread IS ABOUT TRACKING/GUIDANCE of the R/RE. Please dont dilute or derail the thread. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m. Maybe is this one ?? ( this range info is against a fighter, fighter means high maneuverability ). Take a look, there is no bigs differences between the R-27R: Here's the range diagram for the R-27R. I have the R-27ER as well (but not handy), which Viper has seen and what he is telling you is correct. Against very high and fast targets like SR-71 or B-70 the range is about 90km. Can you even explain what it means to say 'x km against a fighter'? PD: Also will be great you share with us the official info about the Aim-7 and the Aim-120 against a fighterWould be great if you had any idea whatsoever of what 'maximum range' means. I'd like to know :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkspade Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Would be great if you had any idea whatsoever of what 'maximum range' means. I'd like to know :) What I find most annoying is when trying to acquire such info, the spec is usually listed as "Maximum effective range at altitude", but never given what this altitude requirement is. That without any mention of launching craft airspeed. Is it the combat ceiling? http://104thphoenix.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 No, it isn't the combat ceiling. It's the 'average use case', or so you can assume, or it can be an extreme use case. There are resources that will give you a much better guess (eg. naval documents list AMRAAM as 35nm+, reccomend attacking from 20nm - fair guess that we're talking about launches from a 0.9M 20000' hornet here - BUT, this is unclass stuff, so you can't be sure). Knowing the range doesn't tell you anything anyway. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPTIDE Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 What I find most annoying is when trying to acquire such info, the spec is usually listed as "Maximum effective range at altitude", but never given what this altitude requirement is. That without any mention of launching craft airspeed. Is it the combat ceiling? Yeah. "Brochure Range" :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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