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The vortex trap


Rongor
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I did some testing now. I am sure I am not the only one around here experiencing the sudden fall into the ground while trying to hover.

I know what a vortex is and how it works. Also I am sure the missing peripheral vision and no feeling in our seats are increasing the problem.

You are hovering or moving with slowest speed in level flight and adjusting the collective pitch. I found out that if your sinkrate gets beyond 600-700 ft/min, some sort of switch is turned and the ship is going down like a stone.

 

Are 600 ft/min in fact the deadly threshold for the unstoppable destruction in RL?

This is not the case in modern helicopters and I have my doubts about the RL Huey. So can anyone tell more about that?

What really annoys me so far, is that you turn into the vortex rather quick, you can actually feel how the flight model decides "game over dude, you are going down now!" and this seems to be a point of no return.

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RogueRunner, if you dont want to contribute anything to the question, simply dont reply...

 

Excuse me? See section 3.1 on that wikipedia page. It also includes a link to VRS. How could you possibly miss that and say something like that?

'Frett'

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See line 2 in my first post. Possibly both of you missed that line and those following as well ;)

How could a wikipedia link clarify if vortex is simulated anything near reality in this simulation of a Huey?

I would have expected the vortex appearing at higher sinkrates initially, at least 1000 - 1500 ft/min.

 

As 159th_Viper pointed out (thanks again), this is WIP. If you update section 3.1 on that wikipedia page about it, the link might have helped...

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Vortex Ring State, more commonly referred to as settling with power, is very unrealistic in the DCS Huey. In real life, you'd have to try hard to get into a settling with power situation, as opposed to the Huey in-game, which is way too prone to the condition.

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Exactly my experience, Robert. I have tried it in an EC135 coming out of HOGE and the first indications of shaking started at around -1500 ft/min. Also in RL you can prevent the VRS if counteracting immediately. In DCS it is pretty much game over at this point.

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I did some testing now. I am sure I am not the only one around here experiencing the sudden fall into the ground while trying to hover.

I know what a vortex is and how it works. Also I am sure the missing peripheral vision and no feeling in our seats are increasing the problem.

You are hovering or moving with slowest speed in level flight and adjusting the collective pitch. I found out that if your sinkrate gets beyond 600-700 ft/min, some sort of switch is turned and the ship is going down like a stone.

 

Are 600 ft/min in fact the deadly threshold for the unstoppable destruction in RL?

This is not the case in modern helicopters and I have my doubts about the RL Huey. So can anyone tell more about that?

What really annoys me so far, is that you turn into the vortex rather quick, you can actually feel how the flight model decides "game over dude, you are going down now!" and this seems to be a point of no return.

 

I think I read in the manual that you should keep your vertical speed at or below 300 ft/min to avoid VRS...




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I have tried it in an EC135 coming out of HOGE and the first indications of shaking started at around -1500 ft/min.

 

The following is a legitimate question for you. I'm not trying to refute your claim in anyway.

 

Would the 4-blade setup on the EC135 make it less susceptible to VRS than the UH-1 with it's 2-blade? Or does that not have any measurable effect on it?

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Frankly I dont know the answer. The EC135 downwash cone is known for being quite directional concentrated. Maybe this allows it to sink more rapidly before diving into a critical amount of downward accelerated air masses.

 

The whole thread was originally meant to discuss if there is really that much difference between different helicopters and rotor layouts and if the Huey is in fact one of those with a very limited critical VRS sinkrate.

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The whole thread is pointless actually because the module is still a beta and as Viper said the VRS it's still WIP.

 

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Rule of thumb for me and it works real well is to watch the panel. When it starts to shake violently at low speeds you want to add collective and be smoother on the cyclic to much cyclic will move the blades to fast thus not catch enough air putting you in a stall (vortex ring). when I'm coming in to a landing I tend to come in real fast(100 knots) then drop the collective while pulling the cyclic back as speeds decrease, the panel shakes more I add collective trying to maintain my same sink rate. I personally watch my gauges when hovering more than a reference point on the ground.

The following is a legitimate question for you. I'm not trying to refute your claim in anyway.

 

Would the 4-blade setup on the EC135 make it less susceptible to VRS than the UH-1 with it's 2-blade? Or does that not have any measurable effect on it?

 

Technically yes because there are more blades to grab the air with less friction because there is less of an air gap between the blades rather than a two blade configuration. So it would make for a smoother transition. Think of it like a bird flapping its wings, a regular ordinary bird flaps its wings (ROTOR BLADES) so many times a min, while a humming bird has a faster wing flap so it could hover easier than a ordinary bird. If that made sense.


Edited by [Knight]
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I have spoken with soem reallife german UH-1D pilots.

 

They told that they never had think alot about VRS. Only if heavy loaded was it a factor and then they almost need to bring it into VRS by purpose.

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To get into VRS you need 3 things to happen or be in the right place. Rate of decent greater than 300ft per minute, airspeed below 30kts and power applied. If you remove anyone of these 3 things you won't tend to get into it.

 

When demonstrating this real world with students I used to climb in to at least 2-3000ft and put it into a high hover. Then slower reduce the power until you RoD is above 300fpm, then slowly increase collective and wait until the RoD increased and started to feel vibrations. To get out of it you reduce collective and push forward until the rotor disc touches the horizon and build up forward airspeed. When above 30kts and increasing slowly pull back in collective and start to climb away again. By this point you could be near 1000ft if you let it develop enough.

 

I haven't had chance to fly the DCS Huey so can't comment on how it handles it, but it is very difficult to simulate this due to the factors involved that create VRS in the first place.

 

BR

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Any update on when they might be releasing a fix for the over sensitive VRS? Pretty frustrating and IMHO the only thing that is really putting a blanket on my enthusiasm for this module..

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Any update on when they might be releasing a fix for the over sensitive VRS? Pretty frustrating and IMHO the only thing that is really putting a blanket on my enthusiasm for this module..

 

I think it is good. It gives me more to think about when trying and i say TRYING to land.

 

And when it comes to release date i think that my landing skills will be better of because of my pratice to stay out of VRS. :pilotfly:

 

O_Smiladon

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This is actually a very legitimate concern you had, Rongor. It seems indeed that the current Huey flight model is oversensitive to VRS as of now. This will be reduced.

 

Check out this thread, and this post in particular.

Please think about the fact that updates to the FM have already been made when linking back to old comments about the FM.

 

The FM is still a WIP, but chages to address these issues have been made.

Those comments pre-date this update:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1758651&postcount=4

 

So rather than establishing things about " the current Huey flight model" they relate to "the previous Huey flight model"

 

If you feel the VR state is still too easy to enter, it would be better to discuss the FM as it is now, rather than as it was.

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Cheers.

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Please think about the fact that updates to the FM have already been made when linking back to old comments about the FM.

 

The FM is still a WIP, but chages to address these issues have been made.

Those comments pre-date this update:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1758651&postcount=4

 

So rather than establishing things about " the current Huey flight model" they relate to "the previous Huey flight model"

 

If you feel the VR state is still too easy to enter, it would be better to discuss the FM as it is now, rather than as it was.

 

Gee that's great, but the fact that I am asking about it NOW means that I am asking the question relative to the current model now doesn't it? I quoted the only relevant statement that has been made since and is kind of the reason I was asking...

 

Sooo, once again, VRS in the CURRENT MODEL is way too sensitive and do we have any news on when it may be addressed? (And for those that like it because it tests their skills, that is great but it is NOT representative of real world handling characteristics of the arcraft in question. I would like it to be realistic. And for those that want to say it is realistic, then please reconcile that view with all of the actual HUEY pilots that have made numerous statements like "You have to almost TRY to reach VRS in the Huey to experience it." Or "I have flown x hours in the Huey and have never had to worry about VRS"

 

In the current model, VRS will kill you every time if you are not fanatical about watching your gauges and that is not right...

 

Any news?

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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