How necessary is trim/autopilot?

[Mattressi]

With the Steam sale currently on, I'm suddenly much more interested in BS2 (I just picked up the A-10C, already). I've had the Huey module for a while and I love it. I'd really love a Hind simulator (please don't mention ToH:Hinds - that was painful), but the Black Shark might be a decent replacement.

 

The thing I worry about is the flight of it. I don't trim the Huey when I fly it - I enjoy just controlling it myself. Similarly, I like the A-10C for its "stick and rudder", rather than fly-by-wire, controls. I'm not sure about the Ka-50, though. Every guide and manual I read practically starts with telling me how to set autopilot and trim.

 

So, what I'm wondering is; how necessary is trimming and, especially, autopilot, in the Ka-50? Can it fly as well without autopilot/trim as it does with autopilot/trim? Even if it takes a lot more effort, I'm fine with that. But I'm just not interested in flying with autopilot all of the time.

 

Thanks everyone :)

[zaelu]

you can fly it without autopilot but fighting in it is close to impossible.

 

it was designed to be used with autopilot help. it has more levels of usefulness.

 

1. in controls dampening so you don't put the heli in danger by PIO. (pilot induced oscillations) and other gross mistakes

2. then it can help keeping the heli on desired track or on target, turn to target when aiming.

3. then it can help you hover while you are busy aiming and firing the weapons.

4. Then it can fly by itself from A to B

...and can auto descent from hover.

[Lizzard]

Autopilot and Trimmers make things easier, but you can fly completly without them engaged...and using the Trimmers need a bit of practice:)

[DAZnBLAST]

I set my trimmer to my hotas and hold it in when I want to perform scary maneuvers. Release it again when I'm stable, straight and level.

 

The KA-50 is a dream to fly, it's a different style of flying but a pleasure to learn.

[Mattressi]

Ok, thanks for that :)

 

I think I'll pick it up then. If I can fly around fine without autopilot/trim, then I'm happy. I enjoy combat without autopilot, but from what I can tell, combat in the Ka-50 is often based on hovering far away and deploying your weapons (or otherwise using autopilot to move, while focusing on weapons deployment). That seems to make sense to me, now, so I'll get it and see how I like it.

 

Thanks again :)

[lxsapper]

Don't forget every other atack helicopter in the world is a two seater, one guy to fly one to control and employ weaponary. Flying an helicopter and aiming weapons (other than strafing runs) is just a too great work overload.

[Mattressi]

Don't forget every other atack helicopter in the world is a two seater, one guy to fly one to control and employ weaponary. Flying an helicopter and aiming weapons (other than strafing runs) is just a too great work overload.

 

Yep, that's what I came to realise as I looked into it a bit more. I think I prefer more fixed-gun strafing run style of combat, but I've admittedly had very little experience with the more modern "lock a target from far away and fire" style. I'm interested to see how I find it, compared to fixed-gun aiming.

[Maulkin]

If you want to fly the Ka-50 with a more hands-on approach, leave the pitch and yaw autopilot channels on (for dampening) and turn on the flight director. You can still trim in this way as well but it is not necessary. But really you should be using trim as it will make the heli a lot more controllable.

[Irregular programming]

Always fly with at least three autopilot channels on, if you are having problems because you think they are in the way then you are not flying the aircraft correctly.

 

You will still have full control of the aircraft when you want to, while retaining the ability to make use of the autopilot to do steady flights or hover.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Irregular programming

[Fishbreath]

Irregular programming has it, as far as I'm concerned—if I want to throw it around the sky and really play with its agility, I turn on the pitch, bank, and yaw channels and use flight director, at which point it trims like the Huey or the Hip, except with stabilization from the autopilot. If I'm in combat, I'm almost never in flight director mode, and I'm not infrequently in route mode. The autopilots are just so handy.

[XtraChrisP]

...I think I prefer more fixed-gun strafing run style of combat...

 

You can still do that in the Shark if you want. Load her up with rockets and gun pods, set your cannon to boresight, drop the nose and let her rip :)

[HugePanic]

Don't forget to install the no-rudder-trimm mod, directly after installation.

Makes flying much more comfortable.

LStrg+Enter also helps a lot at the beginning.

Insure you also know the keys for trim reset. LStrg+t

 

Have fun

[Fishbreath]

Don't forget to install the no-rudder-trimm mod, directly after installation.

Makes flying much more comfortable.

Insure you also know the keys for trim reset. LStrg+t

 

You should never need trim reset in the Ka-50, IMO, and the no rudder trim mod doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you're using the autopilots correctly (unless, that is, you've removed the centering springs from your rudder pedals, but not everyone does that).

 

The controls display, however, is almost a requirement if you don't have a force feedback setup.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Fishbreath

[roob]

But I'm just not interested in flying with autopilot all of the time.

 

Haven't read much of what the others have already said, but I think you might have misunderstood the autopilot/trim concept of the Ka-50.

 

It's not just for hovering, it's for making that baby do whatever you want it to do.

It's brilliant. And I pretty much fly it like :joystick::gun_rifle: and that would not work (efficiently) without the ingenious AP channels!

[sLYFa]

I dont fly the huey but I wonder how you can fly any helicopter without using the trimmer and dont have your right hand hurt after every flight.

Regarding the Ka-50, you should find it very easy to fly compared to helicopters without stability control systems like the huey. You NEED however to use the trimming system properly to control the Ka-50

[HugePanic]

I dont fly the huey but I wonder how you can fly any helicopter without using the trimmer and dont have your right hand hurt after every flight.

 

--> FFB

[Rongor]

The thing I worry about is the flight of it. I don't trim the Huey when I fly it - I enjoy just controlling it myself. Similarly, I like the A-10C for its "stick and rudder", rather than fly-by-wire, controls. I'm not sure about the Ka-50, though. Every guide and manual I read practically starts with telling me how to set autopilot and trim.

 

So, what I'm wondering is; how necessary is trimming and, especially, autopilot, in the Ka-50? Can it fly as well without autopilot/trim as it does with autopilot/trim? Even if it takes a lot more effort, I'm fine with that. But I'm just not interested in flying with autopilot all of the time.

 

It appears to me you suspect the use of autopilot functions being some kind of cheating. Do not regard the AP functions of a modern helicopter as an invention to counter bad flying skills of the pilot!

This is also no fixed wing airplane, that quite truly use APs for simple convenience, to get through most of the flight hands off.

 

Helicopters don't fly like planes, they simply don't want to fly, they are constantly trying to drift into unstable conditions and you as the pilot have to cope with that. You do that by trimming. Constantly, all the time. The use of trimming isn't aiming to bring you into a convenient hands-off-controls-state, it is a way to reduce force load on your steering hand and to have the helicopter maintaining a nearly-stabilized-attitude as long as possible (until your next trim correction is necessary). This constant trimming can be supported by AP functions. This is no AP that flies you from A to B, it is meant to support you maintaining the maximum possible stability. That is why this AP function is often referred to as StabilityAugmentationSystem. You don't use it for convenience, you use it for safety. You don't simply do your hand a favor by using autopiloted trim (SAS), you gain flight safety. You not only are in a combat zone and have to deal with other things than proving useless skills like not using trimming.

The danger of drifting into undesired flight attitudes while concentrating on something different has to be countered. If you keep your helicopter trimmed, you minimize this danger, as even when the pilot is distracted for a while, the helicopter won't instantly deviate from the desired attitude.

 

AP/trimming in this case is mandatory, if your helicopter is eqipped with AP functions like these, use them! They can do the job better than you. AircraftOperationsManuals will demand the use of SAS, if present. Not using this is no matter of showing off to be no pussy, it would be proving the pilot living bad airmanship and a risky attitude, that endangers the military equipment, the efficiency of the ordered task and of course the life of people.

[Fishbreath]

AP/trimming in this case is mandatory, if your helicopter is eqipped with AP functions like these, use them! They can do the job better than you. AircraftOperationsManuals will demand the use of SAS, if present. Not using this is no matter of showing off to be no pussy, it would be proving the pilot living bad airmanship and a risky attitude, that endangers the military equipment, the efficiency of the ordered task and of course the life of people.

 

This is all true, but I would add one caveat: the moment-to-moment airmanship in the Ka-50 is more exciting with flight director mode than with the autopilot, and more exciting with no stability channels than with flight director mode. That said, the more autopilots you have off, the less effective you are as a combat pilot (and that includes the unchain-rudder-trim crutch, unless you have non-centering pedals!), and since I don't fly the Ka-50 a lot out of combat (the Mustang is the bird for that), I won't consider it.

[Hunden Ynk]

Well said Rongor. I think route mode in the Ka-50 is what many would consider an autopilot to be. I personally, see no reason to not use the Autopilot channels all the time, since holding down trim will give me the same direct feedback as Flight Director. And about trimming, watching cockpit videos of the Mi-8, will show the pilot utilizing the trim button as frequently as Ka-50 pilots, and that despite Mi-8 having an "simpler" system than the Ka-50.