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Posted
Of course but the airframe of the Spitfire was modified throughout the war, but didn't alter a great deal until the Griffon engine mks. I still feel the Mustang lacks a little power in DCS, having said that I can still be successful against the 109 in the sim certainly the 190 even at lower altitudes.

 

I think you need to brush up on your spitfire history, it changed a great deal over the course of the war and the Griffon spitfire never truly replaced the merlin even after the war!

 

Another seriously important factor regarding a like for like comparison is that no matter how good the K4 and D9 may have been, sheer weight of numbers had already tipped the scale irrevocably in favour of the Allies. They'd need to be 10 times as good as a P-51D to even make an impression on the total Allied air supremacy that had been achieved.

 

Like for like, they might be excellent, and that is the level of engagement we'll be concerned with. So the biggest influences are not there, and 1 to 1 I suggest the P-51D and Spitfires will be struggling to compete. Much like the armour. Superior, but unavailable in sufficient numbers to take advantage of their strengths.

 

+1

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Project IX Cockpit

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Posted
The Mustang will be awesome to drag the 109s down low so the Spits can give them black eyes ;)

 

Well... No. The Spit is going to be too slow to keep up with both 109 and P51.

 

I predict that Spitfire will be very successful at the beginning, because many 109 players will keep on turnfighting. Just as they do against P51 now. But when they realize how slow the spitfire is and change their factics, the 109K and Fw190D will be almost invulnerable.

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Posted
Well... No. The Spit is going to be too slow to keep up with both 109 and P51.

 

I predict that Spitfire will be very successful at the beginning, because many 109 players will keep on turnfighting. Just as they do against P51 now. But when they realize how slow the spitfire is and change their factics, the 109K and Fw190D will be almost invulnerable.

 

FW190D9 sure, but BF109K4? Have you flown it at 500+ km/h? Very little turn rate on this thing. It`s no boom and zoomer... At the end, it always comes down to the pilot, I doubt that Spit has "THAT" much better turn rate, or? Can you relax while turning with BF109K4, esp. if he doesn`t go full tank?

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Posted
Well... No. The Spit is going to be too slow to keep up with both 109 and P51.

 

I predict that Spitfire will be very successful at the beginning, because many 109 players will keep on turnfighting. Just as they do against P51 now. But when they realize how slow the spitfire is and change their factics, the 109K and Fw190D will be almost invulnerable.

 

 

That could be the case if you consider a pure dogfight type of mission only. When you introduce objectives, ground pounding (that really matters for the mission no just cosmetic) then is a matter of tactics. There the Pony and the Spit can shine given the rights tactics.

In any case, even in the pure dogfight scenario I think the spit can success if flown to its strengths. What it lacks in speed more than compensate in climbing, turning, acceleration and weapon punch.

Regarding the Mustang, as the germans plane are going to be more cautious about becaming slow, will mean more options for the mustang to evade and use its best assest (high speed maneovrability).

Posted (edited)
FW190D9 sure, but BF109K4? Have you flown it at 500+ km/h? Very little turn rate on this thing. It`s no boom and zoomer... At the end, it always comes down to the pilot, I doubt that Spit has "THAT" much better turn rate, or? Can you relax while turning with BF109K4, esp. if he doesn`t go full tank?

I have extensive knowledge and experience with the 109.

 

The Spitfire has a light elevator, but stiff ailerons and rudder. Those two are the most important to evade an attack. That was mitigated by the cliped wing variant, which will be less susceptible to such attacks. Still, the 109, if not seen, will be able to execute the attack.

 

109 was used in B&Z approach during combat. Most "experten" used this tactic on every front of WW2. Was Fw190 superior? Yes. Does it make the 109 usless in this regard? No. Especially that we have the K4, which is so much faster than the Spitfire. The P-51D 67'hg is barely keeping up with it and Spitfire IXc 18lbs is much slower.

 

Therfore, if the 109K player keeps his speed and separation after an attack, he can be nearly untouchable, even if he is spotted. His attack might be thwarted, but it doesn't mean he is not able to dominate the fight. Would it be possible for the K4 to turn with a Spitfire? If the 109 had low fuel and Spit was full? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

That could be the case if you consider a pure dogfight type of mission only. When you introduce objectives, ground pounding (that really matters for the mission no just cosmetic) then is a matter of tactics. There the Pony and the Spit can shine given the rights tactics.

In any case, even in the pure dogfight scenario I think the spit can success if flown to its strengths. What it lacks in speed more than compensate in climbing, turning, acceleration and weapon punch.

Regarding the Mustang, as the germans plane are going to be more cautious about becaming slow, will mean more options for the mustang to evade and use its best assest (high speed maneovrability).

In pure 1v1 Dogfight, the Spit can hold its own, but the bigger the odds, the more it sways towards the 109. The faster airplane always has the advantage of just running away, and the slower is on his terms. If you know how to keep your speed, and fly calm and disciplined, you will come on top. Also, the 109K is better in a sustained climb than the Spit IX 18lbs.

Edited by Solty
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Posted

You go away for a few days and this happens!

 

Great to see the Spitfire on presale, and she looks good, especially without the washing line!

 

Many thanks ED, really looking forward to flying her :)

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Posted
In pure 1v1 Dogfight, the Spit can hold its own, but the bigger the odds, the more it sways towards the 109. The faster airplane always has the advantage of just running away, and the slower is on his terms. If you know how to keep your speed, and fly calm and disciplined, you will come on top. Also, the 109K is better in a sustained climb than the Spit IX 18lbs.

 

That´s way you have to play smart. Why can´t you use the spit as a energy fighter. Fly high and engage with advantage. They can run away but you can still keep you height advantadge. On the defensive you can defeat their attacks with manouvrability. And if they slow down to have a better chance then they enter your realm. Many scenarios and many possibilities.

What I mean is that even if speed is the most important attribute in a ww2 fighter is not the only one and is the balance of them what makes a fighter bad, good or great. And the Spit is a very balanced fighter.

Posted
Well... No. The Spit is going to be too slow to keep up with both 109 and P51.

 

I predict that Spitfire will be very successful at the beginning, because many 109 players will keep on turnfighting. Just as they do against P51 now. But when they realize how slow the spitfire is and change their factics, the 109K and Fw190D will be almost invulnerable.

 

I have to agree that this is likely to be the case.

Teamwork between the P51D and the Spit IX should work well though.

 

Happy landings,

 

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Posted (edited)
Always found it funny when people compare the D9 and the K4 to the 1 year older Mustang variant, instead of the contemporary F/G/J. The fact that the D, with historically accurate boost setting, was more than a match for the new K4 and D9 despite them being 1 year newer, and thus was considered sufficient and the F/G/J were not rushed into service, says something about the Mustang.

 

Overrated? :lol:

 

because thats what we have in DCS... not the G version. , thats why the P51 is compared to the K4 and D9 because thats what its actually facing as a opponent. :doh:

 

 

It wasnt more than a match, Just merely a match. and no IF you want to play with exact dates , than what we have represented is a P51D from 1945. ( Block 30) except without its 75 MP settings. K4 and D9 still were serviced within 1944, so these are younger than the p51 we have in DCS :lol: the earliest D5 version was not serviced until March of 1944, and that version lacked the gyro sights and only has a single dorsal fin, so it wouldnt be as stable, as later blocks with 2 dorsal fins.

 

the Bf109 F series, and early G (G2) are certainly not contemporaries of the P51D. they were in service within 1942. 2 years earlier the D series, and the allison powered P51s ( modelAs), were not good, so the G2 would outdo the Allison p51. IF theres any G series thats contemporary of the later D model ( D20-D25 & D30) look at the G14 or G10.

Edited by Kev2go

 

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Posted (edited)
because thats what we have in DCS... not the G version. , thats why the P51 is compared to the K4 and D9 because thats what its actually facing as a opponent. :doh:

 

Your statement seemed like the P51 as a whole is overrated.

 

It wasnt more than a match, Just merely a match. and no IF you want to play with exact dates , than what we have represented is a P51D from 1945. ( Block 30) except without its 75 MP settings. K4 and D9 still were serviced within 1944, so these are younger than the p51 we have in DCS :lol: the earliest D5 version was not serviced until March of 1944, and that version lacked the gyro sights and only has a single dorsal fin, so it wouldnt be as stable, as later blocks with 2 dorsal fins.

You seemed to have mistaken the radio antenna masts for the dorsal fin. The only valid argument is the gun sight and the tail radar, but the gun sight doesn't have much practical use in maneuvering combat and the tail radar is more of an annoyance than any actual help in this game.

 

The first P51D flew in november 1943, the K4 and the D9 had the advantage of fighting right at home so they didn't have to take months to get delivered to combat units, unlike the P51D

 

the Bf109 F series, and early G (G2) are certainly not contemporaries of the P51D. they were in service within 1942. 2 years earlier the D series, and the allison powered P51s ( modelAs), were not good, so the G2 would outdo the Allison p51. IF theres any G series thats contemporary of the later D model ( D20-D25 & D30) look at the G14 or G10.

The P51As "were not good" and the G2 "would outdo the P51"?

P-51A-1-43-6007-Chart-1400.jpg

 

The P51A was a low altitude monster and was over 40mph faster than the G2 at SL with only slightly inferior rate of climb with the same amount of engine power.

 

The P51D with historically accurate boost outclassed the G14 and G10 at everything except low speed maneuvering.

Edited by GrapeJam
Posted

Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion PLEASE.....

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Posted
because thats what we have in DCS... not the G version. , thats why the P51 is compared to the K4 and D9 because thats what its actually facing as a opponent. :doh:

It wasnt more than a match, Just merely a match. and no IF you want to play with exact dates , than what we have represented is a P51D from 1945. ( Block 30) except without its 75 MP settings. K4 and D9 still were serviced within 1944, so these are younger than the p51 we have in DCS :lol: the earliest D5 version was not serviced until March of 1944, and that version lacked the gyro sights and only has a single dorsal fin, so it wouldnt be as stable, as later blocks with 2 dorsal fins.

 

the Bf109 F series, and early G (G2) are certainly not contemporaries of the P51D. they were in service within 1942. 2 years earlier the D series, and the allison powered P51s ( modelAs), were not good, so the G2 would outdo the Allison p51. IF theres any G series thats contemporary of the later D model ( D20-D25 & D30) look at the G14 or G10.

 

The G-10 entered Luftwaffe service after the K-4. The D-9 entered Luftwaffe service in Sept 1944 slightly before the G-10.

 

What was the performance differences between an early production P-51D and the DCS P-51?

Posted

Bizarrely I'm not interested in it's paper performance, I'm more about experiencing something that gives us better insight into what the pilots of the era were doing, could do, and whether anything we learnt in the last 70 odd years can be applied to make it better - ie the sandbox simulation. For many, the Spit is a romantic viewpoint and it's impervious to facts :) I've genuinely not read up on the Spit in advance so I will have no disappointment and I know enough about PvP to disregard theoretical 1v1 mismatches because we should all know by now that the secret to winning is all about creating your own favourable odds before you commit.

 

Having said that I'd like to ask if we can get our hands on an early manual now that we are so close?

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Posted
I think you need to brush up on your spitfire history, it changed a great deal over the course of the war and the Griffon spitfire never truly replaced the merlin even after the war!

 

+1

 

Ok so if you saw my post. Didn't say about it didn't change a lot over the war I said the airframe didn't change a great deal until the Griffon engined spits. I stand by it, most of the original IXs were conversions of the VC so yeah up until the Griffon engined spits no the airframe didn't alter a huge deal, alterations yes but massive alterations no. Engine changes armament changes, fuselage lengthened. But massive design changes no.

 

+1

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Posted
I seriously just hope the sound the engine makes it's as closely as possible like the real one. Talk about iconic plane! :D

 

Yeah I really hope the sound is spot on, its so distinctive :)

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Posted

In that case you are misinformed, the Griffon engine Spitfire didn't require a huge change.

 

The biggest change came on the VIII (test pilot Quill thought it was best Merlin) the VIII is what the XIV was based on.

 

After the VIII it was only changes to the rudder and then the introduction of cut down fuselage in late 1944/5 on both XVI and XIV.

 

After that the really big change came with the redesign of the wing and rudder on the mk22 or 25.

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Project IX Cockpit

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Posted
Well... No. The Spit is going to be too slow to keep up with both 109 and P51.

 

I predict that Spitfire will be very successful at the beginning, because many 109 players will keep on turnfighting. Just as they do against P51 now. But when they realize how slow the spitfire is and change their factics, the 109K and Fw190D will be almost invulnerable.

 

Well if they are busy chasing a P-51, then maybe yes... team work ;)

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Posted

According to what we were told when it was announced, it will only be introduced when all the existing modules have been made ready for it - to keep things even and fair apparently.

Posted

Well it would be fairly uneven if only one aircraft responded realistically to damage while the others continue flying with half a wing, leaking out of every orifice and pulling G's with half an elevator as they do now. I certainly don't fault ED for taking that approach.

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Posted

Who says flying with half a wing is unrealistic? :D :D

 

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Posted

Technically that's one and a half wings :P

 

I'm fine if aircraft keep flying like that but I've seen (and done) much much worse....

 

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"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

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