wilbur81

This is 100% true...

Some more Legacy praise from Gonky: Legacy Hornet (A-D) will go Mach 1+ in Military Power, even with a center line tank, two pylons, and missiles on the wing-tips:

Agreed.

Cool, no worries. That makes sense. Thanks, Gortex. This further emphasizes that these Viper pilot G-modeling comments belong in their own bug thread and not under the title, "F-16 Still Underperforming." I agree that the Hornet pilot shouldn't be able to hang out at 7.5 G without stronger physiological effects...and that the Viper G model could be improved as well.

Gortex, just out of curiousity, maybe you could run and graph some of your turn-rate data on Hornet STR and ITR like you did with sustained G several days ago, without the Hornet paddle employed, at airspeeds b/w 150 kts and 550 kts? No pressure, of course... just interested. Some real-world E-M data apparently suggests that the blk 50 and lot 20 jets are actually quite close in turn rate in real life (of course without the Hornet paddle employed). I've posted below a screen-grab from a post awhile back to that effect. The account (in the blue text) recorded below was not written by me but to me in a private message here on the forums.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/296724-paddle-switch-disable-option-in-mp/

Just read the white paper (on the Hornet radar... Absolutely BRILLIANT work, fellas! The entire ED team should be beyond proud! Thanks for keeping the users in the loop regarding the complexity, care, and time being put in to these modules. White paper link: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/medialibrary/751/420tvzzkl8vyxzukcdzamjf7gcrhwzmo/Eagle_Dynamics_Radar_White_Paper_v1.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1nYO05GSHwH0v8qkIaqklwi4ejWqt-bfAAgMNRkEyZXhuGswaDxt4yNN0

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/317116-praise-for-legacy-hornet/ https://forum.dcs.world/topic/296724-paddle-switch-disable-option-in-mp/

Gortex, Thanks for taking the time, bud! Good work. I hope people can see just how massive a difference the Paddle Switch is in the Hornet (if you have to win with the Paddle, you're not good at BFM in the Hornet). Additionally that 82% Viper fuel vs 51% Hornet fuel will make a fairly big performance difference too: That is, flying a lighter Viper with 60% fuel or less makes it even more of a beast. The Hornet (no paddle) owns the slower speed stuff largely because of the straighter, larger wing.

Awesome. Thanks, bud! If you have time, you might go for more realistic flight configurations for both a/c as well.... not just the configs for the E-sports crowd. But I know time is limited. That sounds about right on the "approaching .7M" bit. At 300kts and lower, the Paddle will do very little for the Hornet except bleed it dry. I think what people don't realize is that in the Transonic region (and higher), the DCS Hornet becomes seemingly ridiculous with the Paddle in use...especially with its less realistic pilot G-tolerance model at high g.

I guess we'll never know until Gortex runs the Viper vs Hornet tests without the Paddle with tracks included. What say you, Gortex?

Me: "I have a good number of critiques for the (losing) Hornet flying being done in the two videos posted above." Also me from my earlier post in this thread: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/323031-f16-still-underperforming/?do=findComment&comment=5223285 And finally, regarding the Viper vs Hornet piece of this, Gortex's graph was made with the Hornet's Paddle Switch engaged... in which case, realism bets are definitely off.

Good post and thoughts. Regarding the statement above, "the Hornet is the only jet against which I feel the Viper hasn't a single viable game-plan," are you confident that these experiences for you are against Hornet fliers that are not using the Paddle? Additionally, I have a good number of critiques for the (losing) Hornet flying being done in the two videos posted above. What would your critiques be of how those Hornet flyers lost against the Viper in these 5-6 PvP losses?

Now HERE's a guy in a Hornet getting dominated by a Viper in DCS. ...and another: One can always say, "Well, those Hornet pilots aren't as good as the ones in the server I fly," etc. etc... May be true: Or it might also be true that a DCS Hornet WITHOUT the paddle switch in use (as in these two vids) can get quite reasonably pummeled by the Viper in PvP BFM...if the pilot is solid. I think it is a well-worn, coffee-table-aviation-book myth that ALL versions of the Viper can dominate ALL versions of the Hornet in BFM, 90% of the time, pilot skill being equal. The reality seems to be closer to 50:50 in the WVR arena...at least with late block/lot Vipers and Charlies... and keep in mind: NO real world Hornet pilot is EVER pulling the paddle switch in a training fight against a Viper, or any other airframe.

This is my point: You cannot determine the assertion of this thread, "The F-16 is Still Underperforming" by comparing it to the Hornet's "Cheat-Mode" in DCS even if the whole online world is cheating. And, again, I know of at least one online Hornet pilot who never uses the Paddle switch, and has beaten and lost to Vipers... just like in the real world, where Hornet and Viper pilots beat and lose to each other. I think the Hornet ABSOLULTELY overperforms when the paddle is pulled...much like the Eagle when flown over 10g.... I stand by my point made above. You can make these points in a thread entitled, "The Hornet over-performs with the Paddle Switch," or "Eagle over performs...etc. etc." To put the point another way: You can't say the DCS Viper is "underperforming" when comparing to unrealistic performers (i.e. Paddle-Switched Hornet or Dinosaur-FC3-Flight Modeled-Eagle) in DCS.

Then go back and do the tests with no paddle switch for an accurate accounting of the Hornet's in-game modeling (the FC3 F-15C is pretty exaggeratedly over performing, clearly). There won't be a single Hornet SME out there that will have accurate data on performance of the Hornet under extended G-limiter-override flight; nor will there be any charts available to ED that will give accounts of Charlie Hornet performance with the paddle pulled for full turns, BFM, etc. (Other than the "33% boost of current available G" from the NATOPS). The closest thing out there would be the Finnish performance manuals for their 9G capable Hornets...but that is obviously not the jet ED is simulating.

Nonsense...

You mean like this? (watch the bleed-down in a pylon-less Viper, at full AB, at 600 ft AGL, and 8ish G)

Even in your video, that Viper is not sustaining 9gs (in that aggressive, slick demo config) for more than a second or two. I think ED has this stuff REALLY close. If we're going to nitpik pilot feedback too much, we'll have to give the Hornet less drag as well, according to Gonky here: (I'm mostly playing, Gonky is an AWESOME and humble fighter pilot who might be one of the worst DCS Hornet BFM'ers I've ever seen. ) )

Youtube search "F-16 Hud Demo" or the like and see what you come across, but I've never come across a single HUD video that had the Viper pilot (even in the nice thick air close to the ground, slick, in airshow demo configurations, or otherwise) pulling 9g's for more than a second or two...if at all. Even the slick-jet USAF Viper demos and the T-birds all include the "Big 9 G, tight radius turn" part of their displays... but any HUD footage I've ever seen of this "9G" 360deg turn is usually actually hovering between 6.5 and 7.5 G throughout most of the turn (see one example here and note, assuming he's in burner throughout the turn, how his airspeed seems to bleed throughout this not-really-nine-g-turn: ). This doesn't mean that they can't or don't, of course. I just suspect that the ubiquitous 9g monster jets and pilots aren't doing that stuff as much as is popularly claimed or believed. There's a thread entitled something like "9G sustained is not possible in the new F16 variants?" over at F-16.net might shed some light as well, but it does post charts that aren't acceptable in our forums, so I won't post links here.

My bad... i missed that part. You're right, potential bugs discovered on long flights are nearly impossible to pinpoint in a track.

Tracks, gents, or your concerns are going nowhere.

Nonsense.

Even with the increased TDC speed... I still find the "hover over option and click" method for radar options nearly impossible to do quickly. As has been said, just map it to your HOTAS. Here are the Radar ATTK Page functions I've mapped to mine: Range Mode Data Frame time Set/Reset Azimuth Elevation Manual/Auto (for TWS) etc... I rarely ever touch the DDI buttons when doing A/A.

Indeed... I like this option.