Introducing the VPC MongoosT-50

No, at least in my case it was a locked in cam - could not get screw out, and tried to use brute force which did not end well...

WD-40 do magic in this cases. ;)

No, at least in my case it was a locked in cam - could not get screw out, and tried to use brute force which did not end well...

 

I understand they have better and slightly larger screws now.

Ah ok, I understand :thumbup:

Z...

T-50 Initialization issue?

Quite often when I start a mission I find that none of the buttons on the stick have any effect, while the pitch and roll axes do work. Also, when I open Options -> Controls at the beginning of a session sometimes the data on screen jump up and down, and I cannot test or modifiy control bindings.

In both situations, when I unplug and re-plug the stick (with DCS still running, also in a running mission) it always comes to life and all buttons work ok.

It seems to me that there might be an initialization issue.

@Cyph3r: Do VPS have a firmware update to fix this?

Quite often when I start a mission I find that none of the buttons on the stick have any effect, while the pitch and roll axes do work. Also, when I open Options -> Controls at the beginning of a session sometimes the data on screen jump up and down, and I cannot test or modifiy control bindings.

In both situations, when I unplug and re-plug the stick (with DCS still running, also in a running mission) it always comes to life and all buttons work ok.

It seems to me that there might be an initialization issue.

@Cyph3r: Do VPS have a firmware update to fix this?

It seems to be an issue with some USB hubs/motherboards if you leave the stick plugged in during boot up. Of the few that reported the issue, they fixed it by using a powered USB hub, or just plugging the stick in after boot up.

So of course the problem may well be fixable with a firmware update but there's a problem:

1. It seems to be a rare issue, I think it's only been reported 4-5 times at most.

2. Unfortunately this issue doesn't effect any of the VPC Team (on various laptops and desktops) so it's very difficult for us to get any real information on the issue.

So if you can send an email to support@virpil.com with your PC specs, OS version, motherboard model, which USB ports you're specifically using, if you're using a hub and if so what kind etc etc. We'll try to get to the bottom of it!

This is why, despite the early on QC "issues", I deep down want to be able to get comfortable enough to order a VPC as my next HOTAS (instead of VKB). Outstanding customer service supported by Corporate...whereas I feel VKB corporate is non-existent in terms of customer relations.

 

 

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This is poor taste to slander another company like this. The VKB thread is highly active with both VKB NA (rrhode) and VKB Rus (AeroGator) regularly and quickly responding to questions and comments, and, furthermore email turn-around time for me with VKB has been < 24 hrs, with all queries answered, spare parts dispatched, etc. etc. promptly. The products themselves have arrived as finely-polished "functional works of art" that you would expect from boutique shops such as these, with everything to the best standards of craftsmanship I've seen (I compare it to a Swiss watch, as opposed to the farm machines of the TMHW), working flawlessly out-of-the-box.

High-quality artisan sim hardware are niche-within-niche products. There is no reason to poop in one side of the cereal bowl because you like the other side --- at the end of the day, we may not be eating the same cereal, but we are all sharing the same milk.

Sorry for taking this thread OT. Feel free to ignore or delete as appropriate.

This is poor taste to slander another company like this. The VKB thread is highly active with both VKB NA (rrhode) and VKB Rus (AeroGator) regularly and quickly responding to questions and comments, and, furthermore email turn-around time for me with VKB has been < 24 hrs, with all queries answered, spare parts dispatched, etc. etc. promptly. The products themselves have arrived as finely-polished "functional works of art" that you would expect from boutique shops such as these, with everything to the best standards of craftsmanship I've seen (I compare it to a Swiss watch, as opposed to the farm machines of the TMHW), working flawlessly out-of-the-box.

 

High-quality artisan sim hardware are niche-within-niche products. There is no reason to poop in one side of the cereal bowl because you like the other side --- at the end of the day, we may not be eating the same cereal, but we are all sharing the same milk.

 

Sorry for taking this thread OT. Feel free to ignore or delete as appropriate.

It's an opinion. I think their distributors are great and have great communication, I think that VKB corporate ignores emails and attempts by their customers to connect with them. This is drawn on my own experience and reading the experiences of others. Am I an expert on everything VKB corporate as ever done? No, but I have an opinion based on what I do know. It's not "slander", so relax and stop trying to blow things out of proportion.

Read prior posts where I've said that VPC needs to get their QC up to the standards of VKB, because I feel VKB currently wins there. I think they produce a quality product with very few QC issues and I believe that they have good distributors (as you said), I don't believe their corporate team is their strength though. That's all.

Anyway, back on topic. This thread is about VPC and their products.

It seems to be an issue with some USB hubs/motherboards if you leave the stick plugged in during boot up. Of the few that reported the issue, they fixed it by using a powered USB hub, or just plugging the stick in after boot up.

 

So of course the problem may well be fixable with a firmware update but there's a problem:

1. It seems to be a rare issue, I think it's only been reported 4-5 times at most.

2. Unfortunately this issue doesn't effect any of the VPC Team (on various laptops and desktops) so it's very difficult for us to get any real information on the issue.

 

So if you can send an email to support@virpil.com with your PC specs, OS version, motherboard model, which USB ports you're specifically using, if you're using a hub and if so what kind etc etc. We'll try to get to the bottom of it!

If it's really such a rare issue I see very little chance to have the cause identified. Note I have had this issue since I own the stick i.e. end of August, and I was hoping that some firmware update would come along and fix it. That's why I didn't report earlier. Also note that my stick is now plugged into one of the rare direct USB ports on my PC - no hub in-between. Earlier it was connected through a powered hub - same issue.

So rather than tie up your technicians on a wild-goose chase, I will just re-plug my stick when I start playing. And if one day a firmware update is available I hope I will find out and try it.

Got my base this weekend. As expected there were quality issues, Cams installed were grinded after cutting (laser i presume) the other were not..

Not a major problem for me as i will polish them myself.

The pitch cam is glued in tight so i have some issues removing that, will tackle that one later with some heat. will change the screws from philips to hex head ones on the cams at some point, should be on there from factory.

Other than that it looks good. I will try it out once i've made an attachment for my monstertech table mount.

Got my base this weekend. As expected there were quality issues, Cams installed were grinded after cutting (laser i presume) the other were not..

Not a major problem for me as i will polish them myself.

The pitch cam is glued in tight so i have some issues removing that, will tackle that one later with some heat. will change the screws from philips to hex head ones on the cams at some point, should be on there from factory.

 

Other than that it looks good. I will try it out once i've made an attachment for my monstertech table mount.

There's no way the cams are laser cut that's far too crude of a process to make cams, especially tiny ones like these. The marks along the machined edge are called 'sniping' and is a result of flex in the milling cutter or setup. In this case is a pretty small diameter cutter do accommodate the arc in the center (bit has to be smaller than the smallest radius) so is almost certainly flex in the bit. The solutions are pretty simple so it's puzzling why it's still happening unless it's a cost cutting measure. They are not machining their own parts and the shop in China is probably just trying to get through them as fast as possible or with the least amount of consumption or being cute with tooling, but for cutting cams you need really good bits and operators for really good results.

Solution(s) for sniping:

1) more rigid setup -don't stick bit out as far, use stiffer bit, clamp better

2) do more than 1 finish pass. Normally you first rough machine the shape, then go back and shave off the last .005" - .010" to bring it to finish size. In this case I would rough it and do 2 or more finish passes, with the last one cutting only .002" and maybe follow that with a 'spring pass', where the tool travels the same route as the last pass to take care of what tiny amount was still left behind due to cutter/tool flex. Also might alter rpm/ipm for better results (higher rpm+lower feed rate = smoother finish)

3) don't be cheap with milling cutters -replace them more often, use only high quality cutters for this particular critical piece, make sure coolant is up to the task.

4) final finish with grinder vs milling cutter, likely unecessary if 1-3 is followed.

Of course by moving manufacturing out of house it's hard to have control over these details, but so long as you are familiar with them yourself it's just a matter of communication to convey this to the people actually cutting them, perhaps paying them a little more to make sure they come out right if that's what it takes to maintain qc.

There's no way the cams are laser cut that's far too crude of a process to make cams, especially tiny ones like these. The marks along the machined edge are called 'sniping' and is a result of flex in the milling cutter or setup. In this case is a pretty small diameter cutter do accommodate the arc in the center (bit has to be smaller than the smallest radius) so is almost certainly flex in the bit. The solutions are pretty simple so it's puzzling why it's still happening unless it's a cost cutting measure. They are not machining their own parts and the shop in China is probably just trying to get through them as fast as possible or with the least amount of consumption or being cute with tooling, but for cutting cams you need really good bits and operators for really good results.

 

Solution(s) for sniping:

 

1) more rigid setup -don't stick bit out as far, use stiffer bit, clamp better

 

2) do more than 1 finish pass. Normally you first rough machine the shape, then go back and shave off the last .005" - .010" to bring it to finish size. In this case I would rough it and do 2 or more finish passes, with the last one cutting only .002" and maybe follow that with a 'spring pass', where the tool travels the same route as the last pass to take care of what tiny amount was still left behind due to cutter/tool flex. Also might alter rpm/ipm for better results (higher rpm+lower feed rate = smoother finish)

 

3) don't be cheap with milling cutters -replace them more often, use only high quality cutters for this particular critical piece, make sure coolant is up to the task.

 

4) final finish with grinder vs milling cutter, likely unecessary if 1-3 is followed.

 

Of course by moving manufacturing out of house it's hard to have control over these details, but so long as you are familiar with them yourself it's just a matter of communication to convey this to the people actually cutting them, perhaps paying them a little more to make sure they come out right if that's what it takes to maintain qc.

I hear you. Having worked as a cnc operator in the past, these cams does not look machine cut to me, Stamped or laser, Not waterjetted as that would make nice cuts with no need for finishsing.

Small tip for those who have the screws blocked and/or destroyed:

- drill the screw with a small diameter drill bit. Use a high temperature mini torch or even a soldiering iron to heat up the screw. The drilled hole helps high temperature to better dissipate to entire screw length. Everything there is metal so you will risk nothing, just be a bit careful to not torch the electronics :D

The mini torch is something like this:

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/micro-flame-butane-torches

The thread lock compound is generally affected by high temperatures so that you can easily unscrew it when is heated enough.

Small tip for those who have the screws blocked and/or destroyed:

- drill the screw with a small diameter drill bit. Use a high temperature mini torch or even a soldiering iron to heat up the screw. The drilled hole helps high temperature to better dissipate to entire screw length. Everything there is metal so you will risk nothing, just be a bit careful to not torch the electronics :D

 

The mini torch is something like this:

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/micro-flame-butane-torches

 

The thread lock compound is generally affected by high temperatures so that you can easily unscrew it when is heated enough.

I would urge caution throwing a drill on it, I got the bright idea to try and drill out a stuck cam and destroyed my first gimbal. I am sure many would be way more talented at this approach though than I am, just be careful.

There's no way the cams are laser cut that's far too crude of a process to make cams, especially tiny ones like these. The marks along the machined edge are called 'sniping' and is a result of flex in the milling cutter or setup. In this case is a pretty small diameter cutter do accommodate the arc in the center (bit has to be smaller than the smallest radius) so is almost certainly flex in the bit. The solutions are pretty simple so it's puzzling why it's still happening unless it's a cost cutting measure. They are not machining their own parts and the shop in China is probably just trying to get through them as fast as possible or with the least amount of consumption or being cute with tooling, but for cutting cams you need really good bits and operators for really good results.

 

Solution(s) for sniping:

 

1) more rigid setup -don't stick bit out as far, use stiffer bit, clamp better

 

2) do more than 1 finish pass. Normally you first rough machine the shape, then go back and shave off the last .005" - .010" to bring it to finish size. In this case I would rough it and do 2 or more finish passes, with the last one cutting only .002" and maybe follow that with a 'spring pass', where the tool travels the same route as the last pass to take care of what tiny amount was still left behind due to cutter/tool flex. Also might alter rpm/ipm for better results (higher rpm+lower feed rate = smoother finish)

 

3) don't be cheap with milling cutters -replace them more often, use only high quality cutters for this particular critical piece, make sure coolant is up to the task.

 

4) final finish with grinder vs milling cutter, likely unecessary if 1-3 is followed.

 

Of course by moving manufacturing out of house it's hard to have control over these details, but so long as you are familiar with them yourself it's just a matter of communication to convey this to the people actually cutting them, perhaps paying them a little more to make sure they come out right if that's what it takes to maintain qc.

Yeah. As a former CNC machinist the cams may be use laser cutting for the rough cutting. But the finishing process looks to be done with a vertical mill. The one photo you can see the burr has “pushed” up and over, off the cam’s radiused working surface and onto the plane that has the 2 countersunk holes (the holes appear to be plunge cut at improper feeds/speeds based on surface finish). This indictates an end mill performed a finishing pass, typically high speed, low feed pass and as you said a shallow depth that varies depending on the steel. Feeds and speeds in addition to using a non ideal cutting tool on the finishing pass (more Ideal would be a shorter higher flute count HSS, Ideal would be carbide) seem like the obvious problem here. Something I’m curious about is they almost appear to be electroplated based on odd surface finish on the far right cam, far right portion of the working surface.

Yeah. As a former CNC machinist the cams may be use laser cutting for the rough cutting. But the finishing process looks to be done with a vertical mill. The one photo you can see the burr has “pushed” up and over, off the cam’s radiused working surface and onto the plane that has the 2 countersunk holes (the holes appear to be plunge cut at improper feeds/speeds based on surface finish). This indictates an end mill performed a finishing pass, typically high speed, low feed pass and as you said a shallow depth that varies depending on the steel. Feeds and speeds in addition to using a non ideal cutting tool on the finishing pass (more Ideal would be a shorter higher flute count HSS, Ideal would be carbide) seem like the obvious problem here. Something I’m curious about is they almost appear to be electroplated based on odd surface finish on the far right cam, far right portion of the working surface.

I am looking at the supplied cams (not installed ones) and i can see Heat discoloration on the surfaces of them, you know rainbow effect like you get on surfaces that have been cut with something like a laser or similar heat source. On all sides. Might differ on others batches, but i cannot speak for that.

I am looking at the supplied cams (not installed ones) and i can see Heat discoloration on the surfaces of them, you know rainbow effect like you get on surfaces that have been cut with something like a laser or similar heat source. On all sides. Might differ on others batches, but i cannot speak for that.

More than one reason you could be seeing that: using a dry machining process or inadequate coolant flow, excessive feed/speed depth, or even post process heat treatment. When metal is removed with rotating cutting tool, the machined surface becomes strain (aka work) hardened. This is can be undesirable in many applications and can be altered through heat treating though I don’t think it’s necesary here. It also could indicate laser cutting or wire EDM for the roughing process.

Which picture specifically are you looking at?.

More than one reason you could be seeing that: using a dry machining process or inadequate coolant flow, excessive feed/speed depth, or even post process heat treatment. When metal is removed with rotating cutting tool, the machined surface becomes strain (aka work) hardened. This is can be undesirable in many applications and can be altered through heat treating though I don’t think it’s necesary here. It also could indicate laser cutting or wire EDM for the roughing process.

 

Which picture specifically are you looking at?.

This is a good example of the surface on the cams.

https://cdn.mate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/LCQG_Feedrate.jpg

In the end i dont see this as a deal breaker for this joystick at all.I just used som fine sandpaper and a little time and got a mirror like finish on one of the cams pretty easily. Anyone could do that.

The big one is the screws and loctite, makes removing them a pain. 2 drilled and tapped new holes for me :) should have used hex head screws.

Still haven't plugged it in yet. :thumbup: looking forward to that.

In the end i dont see this as a deal breaker for this joystick at all.I just used som fine sandpaper and a little time and got a mirror like finish on one of the cams pretty easily. Anyone could do that.

Anyone probably could but shouldn't have to. My joystick has been just an expensive paperweight ever since I got it. Haven't flown with it at all. Got the replacement cams as well in late august or early september, they weren't polished either and even missing the no center cams. Maybe in december I can get to it and try sandpaper on one of the original cams but this whole thing is a mess.

Anyone probably could but shouldn't have to. My joystick has been just an expensive paperweight ever since I got it. Haven't flown with it at all. Got the replacement cams as well in late august or early september, they weren't polished either and even missing the no center cams. Maybe in december I can get to it and try sandpaper on one of the original cams but this whole thing is a mess.

I'm sorry to hear that your replacements weren't up to scratch, a lot has changed since late August. Can you send me your order number please? I also didn't know you were missing your no-center cams. Please email me on sale@virpil.com!

We can't resolve these issues unless you let us know!

This is a good example of the surface on the cams.

 

https://cdn.mate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/LCQG_Feedrate.jpg

Ah, I haven’t seen any pictures of the cam surface that close. Maybe I’m not looking far enough back in the thread. If that’s the surface finish you’re seeing then the parts are almost certainly being cut with a water jet.

Correction: It looks like those are 3 different cutting tools in the image? Are you referring to the bottom most one?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

What do you think ? :D

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

 

What do you think ? :D

After seeing the pictures I think I shouldn’t have speculated. From my experience as a CNC machinist as an engineer, I’ve had an emphasis on metrology, GD&T, and V&V.

Saying what I really think about the quality of those cams is essentially engineering for free. It would likely just get me into trouble here.

I think VPC if anyone should explain.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

 

What do you think ? :D

Now why did you pick such an old example? :smilewink: There are more recent examples in this thread - in fact there are some from just a few pages ago! Anyone who has received cams they are not happy with can contact us anytime to receive a replacement set!

We're constantly working to improve based on community feedback, the cams especially - I will post some new photos of the cams tomorrow :)

Now why did you pick such an old example?

I regularly watch this topic but apparently not enough to catch everything. Your picture definitely shows that the cams are now much better :thumbup:

Now why did you pick such an old example? :smilewink: There are more recent examples in this thread - in fact there are some from just a few pages ago! Anyone who has received cams they are not happy with can contact us anytime to receive a replacement set!

 

 

We're constantly working to improve based on community feedback, the cams especially - I will post some new photos of the cams tomorrow :)

Just my opinion:

I recieved my T50 with base 10 days ago. My cams look really well manufactured - comparable to the ones on the picture cyph3r posted. Everything is very well manufactured - there are no loose parts or anything. The Stick is super precise and the adjustement for the centre stick force on the base works extremely well when switching between the mongoose stick and my warthog stick with the extension (which in my opinion is neccessary because of the extra weight of the warthog). That beeing said i am super happy with the quality of the product - the stick feels amazing - and i am absolutely confident that i will not be able to brake the base in daily use. The base is lightyears beyond my warthog base.