Why does semi mode dispense chaffs when I'm chased by IRs?

[Fred00]

Hi!

 

New member here and I've logged about 40 hrs and just started doing missions. One thing I'm just not getting is the counter measure system. The semi mode is supposed to choose the right program depending on the threat type but it doesn't seem to work.

 

For example, I've flown the Georgian Hammer mission 1.2 (blowing up the bridge) and I've set "immortal" in the game options just to be able to test this. The program chosen is initially "A" and when ML starts to flash and the SA-18s are firing the program remains in "A". The first two missiles were fired and hit me without the program switching, and it was not until the third SA-18 launched that the program switched to "M".

 

Is this normal or is it a bug? If it's normal then I'd better learn how to use manual mode efficiently...

[arkroyale048]

Semi only switches programs according to the threat... You still have to activate it by using CMS forward.

 

Putting it to Auto "A" will switch to the respective program and then deploy the counter measures... Do be careful though... It has the habit of dumping countermeasures even when you're just being pinged (not hard locked).

 

 

**edit edit**

 

It is not always reliable too (semi). Sometimes you get launched by IRs but the program remains for radar missiles. Also; the semi auto mode doesn't account for radar missiles that has a backup IR sensor.

Edited January 4, 2015 by arkroyale048

[GripenNG]

A good ROT to survive in DCS is to always use the manual mode. Semi and Auto-modes just gets you killed.

[Yurgon]

First of all, the real Countermeasures System is classified, so whatever we see in DCS is something like a plausible approximation which may or may not work as the real thing.

 

Regarding the A-10C countermeasures system in DCS, I've read different types of advice over the years. Some players argue that the system itself knows best how to counter a threat and we sim pilots shouldn't be fiddling with it, leaving it at SEMI and activating it when a missile is incoming.

 

I belong to the group that feels the system is rather imperfect and might select an anti radar program even while I'm being attacked by IR, therefore I leave it in MANual mode.

 

My default program is C, so whenever an unexpected launch is detected, I can pump out flares like crazy. If the RWR indicates I'm tracked and likely to be engaged by a radar guided missile, program B should be a good choice, and if I suspect IR and radar guidance at the same time, I select program D.

That means whatever program I have selected, the program of choice is a maximum of two button presses away.

 

However, I'm no expert when it comes to threat evasion, so in order to get good at it you should read and experiment until you feel comfortable. :thumbup:

[Fred00]

Thanks for the replies guys. Looks like the system has its weaknesses, so I'll be trying to get used to manual mode from now on. :thumbup:

[Pavespawn]

I'll tell you this from an old operator perspective:

We always flew in semi in the Pave Low. The computer correlated the launches as IR or radar threats and dispensed the appropriate countermeasure after one of us punched the button. Assuming the sim does the same correctly the big problem would be people not dispensing correctly. You need to G up before you push the button.

[Maverick-X]

Here is a short tutorial on Countermeasures I did a while ago.

Might not be perfect but at least useful:

Edited January 6, 2015 by Maverick-X

[arkroyale048]

Thanks for the replies guys. Looks like the system has its weaknesses, so I'll be trying to get used to manual mode from now on. :thumbup:

 

I use a custom program.

 

Program A is my panic program.

 

1 chaff - 1 flare - .50 interval - 6 cycles

 

Program B is my ingress program.

 

1 chaff - 1 flare - 1.50 interval - 7 cycles

[Maverick-X]

Arkroyale: I'd recommend watching the last part of my video posted above. It is possible to edit the file responsible for storing the profiles, which is much more convenient than changing the profiles after every startup.

 

Regarding your profiles: is it enough to drop only 1 flare every .5s while a short range IR-Missile is inbound? I had a profile of 4/.25s/4 times which was pretty wastefull, now I use 2 flares ever .25 for 4 times. I actually never used less in case of an incoming missile in fear I'd get hit otherwise

[arkroyale048]

@Maverick

 

Oooh... Yep... I've been meaning to ask if there's a way to just edit the default profiles so that I don't have to set it up everytime.

 

 

As for my profiles. With maneuvering, yes it seems to be enough. I don't know exactly how the countermeasures vs the IR seekers work in game. But I'd like to imagine that when I maneuver and then start my profile maybe 2x, all the IR seeker could see is a massive heat bloom, so much that it can fill up the seeker and just go dumb.

 

I've had a few instances where upon doing so, I actually witnessed the missile change targets from me to the flares.

 

 

**edit edit

 

The video doesn't seem to be playing :(

Edited January 5, 2015 by arkroyale048

[Pikey]

Looking forward to seeing that video actually Maverick.

 

Yesterday I could have sworn that my dispensers fired off a program in response to a friendly MWS alarm. Either that or in my fear I hit the switch as I broke left and low...I dont think I will ever know unless a dev can confirm the code doesn't trip activation from MWS.

[Fakum]

@Maverick

 

Oooh... Yep... I've been meaning to ask if there's a way to just edit the default profiles so that I don't have to set it up everytime.

 

 

As for my profiles. With maneuvering, yes it seems to be enough. I don't know exactly how the countermeasures vs the IR seekers work in game. But I'd like to imagine that when I maneuver and then start my profile maybe 2x, all the IR seeker could see is a massive heat bloom, so much that it can fill up the seeker and just go dumb.

 

I've had a few instances where upon doing so, I actually witnessed the missile change targets from me to the flares.

 

 

**edit edit

 

The video doesn't seem to be playing :(

 

There is,, I read about it here in the forums about a year ago, I do not recall how to do it though. you would have to search for it, but the info is here somewhere.

[SFJackBauer]

Looking forward to seeing that video actually Maverick.

 

Yesterday I could have sworn that my dispensers fired off a program in response to a friendly MWS alarm. Either that or in my fear I hit the switch as I broke left and low...I dont think I will ever know unless a dev can confirm the code doesn't trip activation from MWS.

 

Sure it does, how the system would differentiate a friendly from a hostile missile?

[ttaylor0024]

I use the acronym ACE when I fly to panic with. Program A by default is good against radar SAMs, program C is good against IR, and E is both. If I know I'm only going up against IR or whatnot I will edit another program to match what I want. On average however, I never edit the programs, just start/stop as I please on the default.

 

MWS will sound on any detected missile launch as well, making the calls when launching Mavs all the more important so people don't get slammed thinking it was a friendly shooting a Mav.

[Lusik]

I fly on semi mode most of the time and it works in nearly all situations. SA-18 missiles are baser guided so it is appropriate for the system to dispense chaff because in real life that should affect the tracking radar. I don't know if it works this way in DCS but the general rule is correct.

[Maverick-X]

Looking forward to seeing that video actually Maverick.

 

I'm sorry, didn't notice I screwed up the link...

 

Edited the post, and here it is aswell

 

 

Yesterday I could have sworn that my dispensers fired off a program in response to a friendly MWS alarm. Either that or in my fear I hit the switch as I broke left and low...I dont think I will ever know unless a dev can confirm the code doesn't trip activation from MWS.

Very well possible, the MWS is simply a set of cameras set up to detect a launch flash of a missile and the direction it came from. This could be an ATGM fired on a ground unit by another one, a Mav fired by an allie or any other sort of missile. The MWS can't recognize the type of missile or if it was actually fired at you! That's the reason allied A10's should always call "Rifle!" when firing a Mav, so others won't go defensive for nothing.

The big problem is: you could take the time and look in the direction of launch to make sure it was a surface2air missile launched, and launched at you, but in most cases of IR-seeking missiles you only have below 5s of time to impact... So I tend to just flare if I am low enough for IR missiles to get me ;-)

[ApoNOOB]

I just overflew the thread but I think this was stated before but needs to be stressed, imagine the following situation in DCS:World with the A-10C.

 

A target area with a Radar-SAM (let's say TOR) and a IR-guided SAM (strela). Now if you fly with the program on AUTO or SEMI a very ugly situation can occur. The TOR is tracking you with radar and the system selects the appropriate program, the TOR fires and you defend against the missile...

 

If the Strela fires at you, the system will keep the setting for the TOR and even though you may have defeated the first radar missile with chaff, you won't drop any flares for the IR-SAM that is coming at you. Needles to say this can be very dangerous to your health.

 

You don't even need to edit the default programs, just switch to manual mode and use the first four programs. (There are extra HOTAS key's for this stuff: prev-next, start/stop-program)

 

 

A. Is a bit chaff slowly, I use it only if my chaff get's low.

B. Lot's of chaff, very good against all radar sams.

C. LOT's of chaff, almost always defeats a IR sam with maneuvering.

D. A good amount of both chaff & flare. ( I am using this program for A2A threats also)

Edited January 6, 2015 by ApoNOOB

[Maverick-X]

Little error: C contains flares, but I guess thats clear through your description mentioning defeating IR sams. Just to avoid confusion

 

Indeed, manual mode it should be. Although the workload for beginners is already immense, at some point you should try to get used to the manual mode. I started editing profiles as soon as I notices how wasteful semi (or even more auto) mode is. I thought the standard profiles are way too wasteful even used manually, so I edited them, thus getting more out of my countermeasure payload and easier use of manual mode as I knew which profile does what.

 

I have five profiles for the following reasons:

A: ingress flares. One flare about every second for 20s. 
  I use it when entering a target area with suspected IR sams still active. 
  I abort this when egressing / after egress

B: many flares in a short time to get rid of a sudden IR missile
  (this is my usually active profile as everything else allows for more reaction time)

C: contains flares and chaff in case I'm uncertain or actually both incoming

D: high amount of chaff against modern sams

E: low amount of chaff against low threads

Edited January 6, 2015 by Maverick-X

[DaveRindner]

I was/still struggling with -10C countermeasures. So the best results I have had is setting system to Man, set the PROGRAM to E, and leave it. E program dumps both chaff and flares and high rate, and concurrently have ALQ-131 to OPER (emit) if defending radar guided missile. Works well against radar SAMs, pretty well against SAM2 IR missiles, and R-73 head on. However R-73 and R-60M launched at you from your 4-8 will likely hit you. No mater how hard I throw A-10C, they hit. R-27T/TE , jammer on at launch warning, break into the missile , put it on your 3-9, and when it gets within 2-3km dump flares/chaff using program E.

[Fakum]

"put it on your 3-9, and when it gets within 2-3km dump flares/chaff using program E."

 

My experience with this is that once I see the launch trail, I situate myself so I am at 3-9 to the trail heading toward me, but once the trail ceases, and you know the missile is still airborne and heading at you, I can no longer see it, so how can I judge its distance to determine when to start popping countermeasures? Most of the time i dont see it after the trail is gone until its 10' from my canopy,,,, then its good night Irene for me!