Why the next addition should be the Dassault Mirage

[Pilum]

I recently procured the Mig-21 and first of all let me say I'm very impressed both in terms of the visuals, avionics and also the FM as far as I have been able to tell so far. So my hat is off to the Leatherneck team for a job extremely well done!

 

However, I noticed that many are voting for an F-4 Phantom or another Russian design like Mig-23 or Su-22 as the next addition and while I would like to see those as well I would personally prefer a delta in the Mirage series as the next addition.

 

Why? Well first of all it's a contemporary design that is a good match in terms of dogfighting the Mig-21 which it also did IRL. It was also built in a number of different version that could be modeled meaning one that would be a good match-up both in terms of flight performance and armament could be modeled and while we all want historical accuracy, it does not hurt to model something that would make dogfighting interesting and not skewed in either direction.

 

It is also a single seater (no RIO needed like in F-4) and being a delta it would give us a very different aircraft to fly than yet another conventional wing-tail design. Deltas have their own quirks and are different aerodynamically and given the DCS AFM it would be fun to master flying a delta winged Mirage as well.

 

It is not yet another US or Russian jet but being a French design it would also give us a refreshingly new cockpit environment to get familiarized in. French technical solutions both in terms of aircraft aerodynamics and engine, layout of cockpit and french labels on the switches would add some spice to the fare we currently have.

 

So please give us some French cuisine before adding more hamburgers or kotleta to the menu. :yes:

 

Vive le Mirage III!

[joey45]

Well, RAZBAM are doing the M2K which should be out of the hanger this year.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

 

So please give us some French cuisine before adding more hamburgers or kotleta to the menu. :yes:

 

Only one of those three things is palatable, though. :music_whistling:

[Pilum]

Well, RAZBAM are doing the M2K which should be out of the hanger this year.

 

I was thinking more like the Mirage III or similar. Setting a Mig-21bis against a M2K seems a bit harsh.....

 

Only one of those three things is palatable, though. :music_whistling:

 

Kotleta, Da?

[Random]

Mirage III would be great to see but I doubt it's One of LN's next modules.

 

While we are talking about food would also love some swedish meatballs in the shape of a Draken ;)

[Pilum]

While we are talking about food would also love some swedish meatballs in the shape of a Draken ;)

 

Well since I'm a Swede I have to agree with you: Köttbullar & makaroner is good stuff and the Draken is the best looking aircraft ever ! :v:

[Random]

Second best looking jet IMO;) but sexiest jet I've seen actually flying.

[Zakatak]

We already got an M2KC from Metal2Mesh/RAZBAM and their FSX version is pretty excellent. I know a Mirage III isn't the same and that the 2000 would kick a MiG-21's ass up and down Europe, but I'd rather not have "overlap" in a sim as sparsely populated as DCS if you know what I mean. An F-5E would be a fantastic addition and a good competitor to the MiG-21bis. The joy of AGM-65B included! Either that or the Draken/Viggen. I love Swedish jets.

[WinterH]

I would love to see a Viggen or Draken. Yeah probably that's 40th time or so I've said this, but those are really cool and capable aircraft that pretty much never got a good simulation treatment.

 

I'd love to see them in DCS, and I'm not even a Swede, infact not even Scandinavian :P

 

 

We already got an M2KC from Metal2Mesh/RAZBAM and their FSX version is pretty excellent. I know a Mirage III isn't the same and that the 2000 would kick a MiG-21's ass up and down Europe, but I'd rather not have "overlap" in a sim as sparsely populated as DCS if you know what I mean. An F-5E would be a fantastic addition and a good competitor to the MiG-21bis. The joy of AGM-65B included!

 

Well I love F-5 and would love someone do one, heck even more than one versions. But, the way you put it isn't that much different from saying MiG-21 and MiG-29 overlap :) Well they obviously don't, but they still do as much as Mirage III and Mirage 2000 :)

Edited January 8, 2015 by WinterH

[JG4_Helofly]

A Mirage would be great. It's not only one of the best looking jets of all time IMO, but it would be a nice change from all the "traditional" aircraft (especially the US aircraft) which have been modeled over and over again in various sims. That's why a Saab aircraft would be nice too. Or maybe a tornado?:thumbup:

[Pilum]

Well, sorry but adding an F-5 would be just another hamburger to me and frankly I don't think the F-5 is such a hot ship so I doubt I would buy it.

 

Also, I don't really see a good solution for the F-4: What should the RIO solution look like? A MP solution meaning always two people needed or an AI RIO? In the latter case how good should the RIO be?

 

Problem with doing the J-35 Draken is I guess many people can't relate to it. Even if Swedes, Danes, Finns and Austrians were to buy it how big a market is that? Or maybe I'm wrong and there are more people who would like to see it?

 

Anyway, I do think it would be nice with something different like a delta-winged Mirage or Draken though. Maybe one should have a poll? Mirage, Draken, F-4 or F-5? Concerning other aircraft like the Su-22, Mig-23 etc, sure that would be nice as well but right now what I would like to see and gladly pay for is a suitable (and as well made) adversary to the Mig-21bis.

 

The Draken would be nice for me: I'm currently struggling with the Cyrillic text in the Mig but I would of course be quite comfortable with the Swedish text in the Draken cockpit :music_whistling:

 

One that still flies:

If you don't have the patience to check out the whole vid, see from around 3 min in and then check out the high alfa landing at the end :thumbup:

 

And last but not least: If you get a pesky Mig on your tail you can always do the Cobra, a Swedish manouver later deviously copied by the Soviets in the Su-27 ;)

 

(Demonstrated about 1:50 s to 2:30 into the clip)

[xxJohnxx]

Even if Swedes, Danes, Finns and Austrians were to buy it how big a market is that?

 

Draken-Countries unite!

[emg]

Why do you need to relate to a plane in DCS? Lots of people bought the DCS Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-21, 15, Bf 109, FW 190, Hawk, without being from countries that operated them.

[xxJohnxx]

Why do you need to relate to a plane in DCS? Lots of people bought the DCS Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-21, 15, Bf 109, FW 190, Hawk, without being from countries that operated them.

 

Not sure. I guess, people will be buying the aircraft they might see flying around at their "local" airport. Might not be interesting for us, but I guess LNS sure base their decisions on the probable market they could serve, which is often depended on such factors.

 

I will be happy about everything they make. Maybe a forced happiness for WWII stuff, but happy nonetheless ;)

[WinterH]

Pilum, I just said a few posts above yours, that I would buy the hell out of a Draken or Viggen, and I am not a Scandinavian :P

 

I'm sure there will be many other potential SAAB buyers out there. After all, the well done Fishbed got many people who weren't at all interested 3rd gen Soviet aircraft at all to buy it.

 

Although, I have to agree it's potential grand sum of sales would likely be less than a Russian or American aircraft.

 

I don't really think that forum polls are neither productive nor indicative of actually significant data. But I guess such a poll would gather more votes for F-4 than anything else, to which I wouldn't complain since it is an awesome aircraft. And unlike you, I would love seeing a F-5 as well.

 

But, personally I would much prefer a SAAB to those, since they were almost never simulated, and are interesting, and awesome, etc. etc. Same goes for an old Mirage, be it III, V or F-1. While the hinted and rumored F-14 is a very, very cool aircraft, I personally am more interested in more obscure and interesting 50s-60s-early 70s Cold War combat aircraft.

[King_Hrothgar]

I buy DCS modules based on how interested I am in them and whether or not they fit in the game as a whole. I love WW2 fighters and the Fw-190's especially, but I'm not going to buy the Dora module for even $1 without a proper environment for it to fly in (more than just a map, it needs AI ground units, AI planes and all that other stuff). On the flip side, I bought the MiG-21 while it was still in beta for full price even though it's not a plane I've ever been particularly attached to. Why? Cause it's an iconic plane from "the other side" and fits in well, albeit on the target drone side of things. I've only ever seen a MiG-21 once IRL. They aren't exactly a common sight here in the USA.

 

I would very likely buy the Draken even though I know very little about it and have never seen one. About all I know is it was made by Saab and I think it's third generation, but even that I'd have to check. So yeah, whether or not it is a plane I see at the local airport is irrelevant to me. Talking with others who play DCS, I'm fairly normal in that regard.

 

Back on topic, I've heard the Mirage III is already being done by someone else. A third team is also doing the Mirage 2000. Both projects are lower priority than other planes by those teams, but they are on the list and have had a few screenshots and/or videos posted. I think the reason so many of us are asking for the MiG-23 and 25 is so we have a high fidelity Russian fighter that is more competitive with the FC3 fighters and the upcoming pair of F/A-18's. F-5's and F-4's are also highly requested, once again to be a better match against the existing MiG-21 we have. Any of the planes I listed in this last paragraph I would buy and hopefully we will get all of them eventually.

[McBlemmen]

I really dont like french , or for that matter european fighters. I wouldnt mind at all if the majority of modules will be "russia vs US" based. And the only reason i say russia is becouse my US fighters need something to shoot at. Lols

[King_Hrothgar]

Out of curiosity, why the US only attitude on planes? We all have our areas of special interest, but why focus on a single nation? Era's and types certainly make sense to me, but I've never understood the one nation only part. The question doesn't just apply to you, I see a lot of similar comments in regards to WW2 planes, some will only fly German, others only Japanese and so on.

[Pilum]

Well, nice to hear that there seems to be others who would like to see the Draken in DCS! :thumbup:

 

I wonder if the DCS AFM is advanced enough to allow a true representation of the Cobra? IRL there is a complicated pattern of separtad potential and vortex lift on a delta at such aoa that requires a lot of processing to emulate. However, I do believe you can do the Cobra in the DCS Su-27? If so is it ”truly” modeled or scripted in into the FM? Anybody know this?

 

Another thing with deltas (at least the Draken) is the superstall phenomena and this would also require some serious processing so I wonder if that is within the capabilities of the DCS AFM?

 

Too bad the Draken video I posted above is to grainy to see the control input the students are using to initiate and get out of the Cobra before getting stuck in a superstall…..

 

On the subject of superstall, here is a short anecdote of what can happen IRL:

 

A friend of mine flew at the F21 wing in Luleå and did an involuntary IRL superstall in a J-35 J “Johan” in the early 80’: They were training ACM and in a head to head pass at 6 Km he craned his head back to keep the other guy in sight and pulled a bit too hard and forgot to keep tabs on alfa. Result? Next thing he knew he was at a stable high aoa doing mild pendular motions in pitch with the altimeter spinning wildly. Luckily he was trained to handle this situation and knew that simply pushing the stick forward would get him nowhere so he immediately started to use the stick to increase the pendular motions by timing the input to coincide with the frequency of the oscillations and IIRC he was as low as 1-2 Km and close to punching out when he finally got out and could recover.......

[LegoHeli]

However, I do believe you can do the Cobra in the DCS Su-27? If so is it ”truly” modeled or scripted in into the FM? Anybody know this?

 

The Su-27 'truly' does the cobra, it is not scripted. It is the result of disengaging the angle of attack limiter in the fly by wire system and then making a quick pull back on the stick. It's simply a... large scale stall, for a short while.

 

I'm sure it would be possible to model the Draken similarly, however the Draken does not do it because of disengaged FBW, but rather due to excessive control input - then again, that's what the Su-27 family does as well.

[Akki]

I apologize... But I prefer to see the Viggen first.

Here is a wondeful history from a Viggen pilot.

As far as I know Aviodev were building initially a Mirage F1 but its not confirmed by them and possibly theres no contract with ED for it, I hope they can agreed :)

For the Viggen, maybe Cobra is the key to bring that one into DCS.

[RoaringBones]

Well it seems like there are many trainers in the works by different developers.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Aermacchi_M-346.jpg

 

http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/uploads/582_irkut_yak-130-3.jpg

I'd say go ahead and do a M-346/Yak-130. that way it completes the cycle of mostly the current jet trainer/light attack aircraft.

 

I know the thought/suggestion is waay out there at this point lol

[Tomhatter]

I AGREE WITH A MIRAGE BUT LETS MAKE IT AN F-1!!
Edited January 10, 2015 by Tomhatter

[FlyingHighAU]

RAZBAM are already doing a Mirage 2000C and AvioDev are rumoured to be working on Mirage F1

[SUBS17]

The Su-27 'truly' does the cobra, it is not scripted. It is the result of disengaging the angle of attack limiter in the fly by wire system and then making a quick pull back on the stick. It's simply a... large scale stall, for a short while.

 

I'm sure it would be possible to model the Draken similarly, however the Draken does not do it because of disengaged FBW, but rather due to excessive control input - then again, that's what the Su-27 family does as well.

 

That's exactly the same though so devs could make one if they had enough information on it.

 

IMO the Mirage III is a good aircraft and so is the F4 because both fought against Mig21s.

 

 

Or F8 crusader